EB10 and the cost to Support

#1

I am wondering how may people actually have EB10 and if they actually thought about it before they bought it.

So I bought EB10 without actually thinking about it. I have talked (a little) to Rex to provide my opinion on EB10 and why not may people have it and how EB8 is the way to go.

EB10 gets a 1% interest a day. Yup, just a whopping 1%! So if you want that glamorous 5m daily, you will need to have 500 million credits. Sure, 500m is doable, but you will need to spend some real money just to keep it. First, you will need to spend 15 euros just to keep your bank level at wipe. Second, you will need to spend 20 euros to keep 400m. Combine the 400m support package and the 100m carry over for having EB10 you get to keep that 500m. But it cost you 35 euros (more than half the cost of a gameas average cost of a major release is $60 US) every 3 months. If you were lucky enough to spend more money (before the change of carry over) you can carry an additional 100m (dont remember how much that cost, but lets say 20 euros). With a potential to carry over 600m. Sounds nice right?!

Lets add in some of the other common purchases you spend ever 3 months. Recycle carry over, 9 euros and a planet for 77 euros. Sure you DONT have to purchase it, but the time it takes to get recycle and doing PVP you can lose a lot of mats. Sure you DONT have to buy a planet, but lets face it, it is a MAJOR convenience thing. As you can see, the support packages can add up real quick. All that adds up to 121 euros (not including if you are a patron).

I know a majority of you do not pay this. But there are a LOT of you that do. I finding that this game is costing more and more the enjoy and with the recent EB10 and support carry over, it has started to put things into perspective. Name a bank that gives you less interest with the more money and investment that you give the bank. I am not complaining, but when I talked Rex, I was told I could spend more money. That kind of had me thinking, ALOT! Is it really worth it? Full disclosure, I did state that I am considering stopping support with the rising cost to enjoy the game. When you spend over 100 euros ever 3 months and support via patron, the cost is a lot.

#2

What I do is buy EB5 on both na and eu at the start of each season and let it wipe at the end. This is very affordable interms of Rb and credits and yields 3 million credits a day. IF carry EB was a ONE time purchase I would commit to that. However, the current costs of upkeep are too high. I dont pay to retain recycle, factory mats. Or anything else. The idea of recurring costs disinterests me in those services 100%.

#3

I agree that EB10 should not require another donation to use it effectively if it is not going to be a permanent upgrade.

What this does is target the end-game or long term players that have played for many seasons to get to the level to even be concerned about this. By then, those players, like you @SACR1LEG1OUS, likely are already donating for various packages to keep the same level of play that they’ve earned. To add another thing that essentially makes it a requirement to get to that loyal group of players is not a good idea. Donation options should be targeted at everyone, not just the top 10% or whomever is at the level that that specific donation package is almost a necessity.

In the past the position has been “EB isn’t supposed to be a passive form of income”. Well, it absolutely is and has been for ages. Any effects to that portion of the EB (others include various tax reductions) should keep it on par with the previous level, not reduce its effectiveness.

For example, someone with 100m in their bank at tier 10 should be equal to or better than someone at tier 8 with the same amount in the bank (up to the cap). Currently, that is not the case. I think the EB system needs a small rework to address those issues and the “milking” issue as well.

#4

Well for me I like to have the feeling that i am progressing in HWS. I have worked hard and have over 1909 on HWS. I am the type of person who wants to support the server I like to play on and that gives me the feeling of progression. I love that HWS allows me to carry over my progress from season to season. If that ever stopped, I would move on because I could not feel as though my time and effort that i put into the game and HWS would not be worth it. I buy things and am a patron because I know it takes a lot of time, effort and money to run HWS. I would and will continue to support HWS the best I can. Even if I ran out of packages to buy from HWS I would find away to give money to HWS. Now that the patron program has started, I am ok and enjoy being a Meta patron.

However,
I now feel forced to pay from season to season in order to save my progression. I will continue to support the server. I do feel as though the new levels and the real money i would need to pay to get to the higher levels may not be worth my efforts any longer. I do not want to stop playing HWS and will continue support HWS as a patron. I am just saying the reasons I like HWS now feel like a HAVE to thing in order to keep what i have worked for. That leaves me with a bad feeling toward HWS. It makes me not want to take the time and efforts i have before on HWS to reach the higher levels that HWS offers. I find myself not enjoying the HWS as I have before due to the fear that my efforts will be for nothing at the end on any one season. I would much rather WANT to pay XX euros every 3 months then feel as though I HAVE to in order to enjoy HWS the way I want to and the way that the server was when I first started on it almost 3 years ago.

cb:info
Startdate = 29.08.2016 23:24
Playtime = 1909 hours

#5

I want to chime in as well, as I have not paid for any support packages, not because I’m a cheap ass, but myself personally I don’t have the funds. I have 10 people in the house currently, and the wife is pregnant (again), and I am the only one working. It’s not like I don’t want to donate, but I can’t donate. But on the other hand, I do get the chance in-game to upgrade the end game content, however the RP costs are too prohibitive to do so. Actually looking further into using the HWS ingots before the wipe so I have the option later to use them for such things. Donations are not a necessity for end game content, but they do have the rewards for earlier end game content at the start of the new season.

#6

Hey guys,
Currently at vacation.

Thanks for the input.
Before tackling this topic you should first understand the reasons why it is like now…

Can’t go in detail but one reason is we couldn’t set float interest like real world. We try to implement it ASAP.
Then we could rework it from 0,1% to 1% or so.

The other thing, especially taken from many feedbacks is one honest plain thing: long term fun.
Getting 5 millions passive and easy from day 1 in the season is ridiculous and rather a “Finance Simulator greed Game” than survival (NOT even talking about making it 10m per day with CSW…)
I don’t agree 100% with that but you get the idea and kinda true.

The keep 400m credit package was a compromise for someone really only concentrating on economy. Of course it’s crazy to pay so much money for a server every three month, even though it’s optional.
The other idea was taken from a player many seasons ago.
He pushed his bank level to create his own game by telling other players to give him money and store it. Getting a little bit interest at his own.
I kinda liked such Teamplay.

Sure I created a monster with all that bank and interest thing. See real life. But the last I wanted or could imagine are sentences I read here about leaving HWS, makes no fun anymore, etc.
If that is the case I rather remove all of that together. :frowning:
It’s telling me 90% of the other things I worked hard for are useless shit.


Anyways since the ones who share their feedback here are in deep HWS Economy business I would like their suggestions on a kinda rework here please. With interest float numbers in mind as well or price changes in the Support packages if necessary. (I wrote a long post some time ago, many missed who are writing here. About trying to make more money to implement even more and cooler stuff for everyone. The recent changes with Patreon, commodity Trader, PDA Missions, new POIs were possible due that for example.)

Thanks

#7

Maybe make EB 10 great again, and do so you can’t do eb:interest, so you have to go to some special place to get your interest. Maybe somewhere in PvP??

#8

Sure I created a monster with all that bank and interest thing. See real life. But the last I wanted or could imagine are sentences I read here about leaving HWS, makes no fun anymore, etc.

If that is the case I rather remove all of that together. :frowning:

Sorry, am I missing something?
I do not think anyone has said they were leaving HWS or that HWS is not fun anymore. I did, have and will stick with HWS because of the features it has and the way I it is ran. I only state that the time and effort a player must put into this game and server to achieve the HWS end content is very high, and could take several seasons if not years to achieve.
I was very reluctant to post my thoughts on this because of a negative reaction to a positive situation. I dont feel that the Efforts being made to improve HWS are in vain. Nor are they shit. I just have not taken the time in game to explore them all because of my style of game play and the pursuit of reaching the highest HWS levels I can. I just voiced my concerns that maybe I need to change my HWS goal and style of game play. In my opinion if you remove the banking system you may as well remove all other HWS connect features as well. The trust level that HWS has built with long term base players could be lost.
Once again if find myself having second thoughts on a post. However, I feel as though this information needs to be communicated.
THIS IS NOT a threat of leaving HWS if thing don’t change, nor am I saying that HWS in not fun anymore. I will still be ingame 8 to 12 hours a day regardless of any changes, if any are made. I am just saying my HWS goals that I set for my self will and are changing. I do have a fear that all my HWS progression can be lost at any point in time if these types of concerns are voiced and taken in a way that was not intended.
By no means am I trying to be negative about players that do not donate or buy packages. I think the whole RP program is under valued in term of RP to HWS ingots. Aleast it is an opportunity for all players to buy HWS items season to season. I am speaking for myself and my efforts in HWS.

To make it clear. These posts I have made are not a threat to leave HWS. These posts are not negative to the efforts that have been made to improve content for all HWS players.

It is hard to reach a goal if someone keeps changing it when you have halfway reached it or are almost there. At the very least it makes one rethink past actions, and try to anticipate possible future changes to HWS, and how that may affect ones efforts on HWS.

As for suggestions I don’t know if i am qualified to make them. I will however make an effort to come up with some that may make since and build from what is already there.
My first thoughts are along the line that wealthy player or groups can pull there credits to use as rewards for specialized PDA mission according to the factions game play and origins. Or that they can become a competing bank or source of income for newer players.
In order for this next level game play to work the players would need to be able to accomplish all the high HWS levels and be able to retain an amount of wealth without the fear of it all going away in a season. In addition it would set a new high level or next level of play for the long term players on HWS. It would create new content for these players and new HWS players aswell. It would add a next level of HWS play that focuses on something other then stashing away gold in ones OCD.

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#9

Heh, hey guys…
i think i was one of the first people to complain about the bank changes when they were announced, if not the first :stuck_out_tongue:
it created a bit of waves back then and i let it go when @RexXxuS admitted that it wasn’t well thought out and needed working…
here we are today with some other waves and it kinda got me thinking… so here’s my 2 cents yet again :smiley:

First off, i don’t see a problem with the old system, i really liked it, the passive income is a MUST for people with a life… i was working my way up to the 5mil/day interest and the plan was that this would allow me to buy a new garage ship every few days, which meant i would be more willing to venture and risk in pvp… Alas the changes killed that dream :stuck_out_tongue:
I do understand their purpose, however, in my opinion, it would be best to revert these changes to the old values and instead find another way to accomplish what i think you wanted…
the real problem about fresh starts and end game i believe is not how wealthy one is, but rather the Leveling itself…
consider this solution, instead of allowing players to gain xp from mobs and lvl to 25 in a few hours after the wipe… have mobs give 0xp and make all xp gains come from Events/Quest/etc… balance it in a way where reaching lvl 25 will be pretty difficult even by end of season maybe…
what will this accomplish? well, i think it will accomplish many things, a couple that stand out:

  • first, the useless HWS Skill tree will suddenly be that much less useless (yeh those +XP/UP skills…)
  • second and most importantly, since now everyone will be limited to what level ships they can build, this will have many effects, like giving more meaning to lower tier items, which people just trample on now and storm off straight to the highest tier in just a few days at most… this will also cause the game ship market to explode imo… both from HWS Garage ships & higher lvl player ships will now be selling off more as they would be the only means of getting a higher level ship than ur own level would allow…

i really think this would give the progression more meaning than just wiping off all of our hard earned credits…

i await the roasts! :pig:

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#10

Ok… Where would I start…?

First of all why do you consider it bad that someone who actually supports the server with extra 20 euros per season shouldn’t get a measly 1m more from interest daily (up to 90m during whole season) compared to someone who donates less than half of that & still enjoys 4m per day interest?

I think the current system is very good middle-ground… There is the free level (5-6) which is obviously considerably lower. Then there is the middle level (9) which only requires “Keep EB Level” donation. Then lastly there is the top level which requires both “Keep EB Level” & “Keep 400m” donations to be effectively used.

Nobody is forced to upgrade to level 10 and people shouldn’t even consider that unless committing to more donations. I’d like to remind that 4m is more than 2.5m from earlier EB when maximum was level 5 (2.5m interest). RexXxuS is already giving us higher interest per day for same amount of money donated than before. He also made lower EB levels (5 which is completely free to play) more lucrative than before. Why is the final 1m per day so necessary to get free?

Now before we go into “Why not just let us keep 1b” argument, the answer is quite simple. Economy & the need to control inflation.

If everyone is able to hold massive amount of credits there is way less need for gold (This was seen last season, gold price stayed at 300 at the end until RexXxuS announced the nerf… then It instantly jumped to proper 400+).

Also freely holding massive credit amount from wipe to wipe would cause increase in price for literally everything and forces RexXxuS create more currency sinks to battle inflation, which will, in turn, cause even more gap between veterans and new players.

It’s necessary to implement “currency sinks” in big multiplayer games or there will be higher and higher inflation as time passes. Forcing players to store their credits in gold (which costs more than it gives back in next season) is a very good long-term solution for this issue. Combine it with high costs of OCD levels to store said gold and you have very well working inflation control system.

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#11

The threat of getting this thread too far off its original topic is really high here. Let me reel it back in with more plain language:

The current system erases progression (in the case of this thread, EB) unless you pay money. Recently, the cost associated with it (EB carryover) has gone up further. This ends up punishing end-game or long time players because they have the most progression at stake to be lost should they not pay.

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#12

Lower interest on bank levels significantly, increase amount of kept money but not that high as it was before nerf
Create high interest upgrade-able season packages
Make EB levels permanent.

#13

Inflation is increased when credits supply increases and/or credits demand decrease- storing credits for the wipe and getting them back in next season doesn’t change it. Last season biggest money printer was commodity trading, now it’s nerfed.

If you want more need for gold I think prices for various upgrades could be changed so they’d also require gold

#14

Good video about my thoughts :slight_smile:
Inflation in MMORPGs isn’t directly comparable to that of a real world economy. In real world only x amount of money exists. In virtual environment like this unlimited amount of money can be generated. Your statement would be true in real world where money mostly just moves from person to person instead of being generated.

It’s a mean to control inflation by reducing available credits in game. Just like charging money to repair weapons in WoW. This is necessary because unlimited credits can be gained while time moves forward like mentioned earlier. There has to be various ways to remove those credits from the game. Garage ships, Upgrades, Wipe are all means to achieve that as credits are removed from the game in the process (turning gold into coins at lower rate than purchased).

#15

It is, the same rules apply which actually was said in your video :stuck_out_tongue:

Nope, total amount of money in real worlds is constantly increasing when people take loans from banks or central banks do things like Quantitative Easing etc… It wasn’t fixed even in the old days when gold was money since more and more gold was mined.

Here’s how it works in real life:

That’s true but it’s also true in case of real world - unlimited amount of dollars can be created by FED.

It doesn’t matter if money is being generated or not - keeping money doesn’t create more money.

Of course money sinks are needed, and we already have some like the ones you mentioned.

Do we need more? Maybe yes, maybe not, Rex would have to collect some statistical data

Wipes only remove money when someone doesn’t prepare and get his account cut by wipe, it’s rare situation since that is essentially a mistake. Buying/selling gold from/to other players doesn’t affect money supply at all.

#16

I’ve never said this is the only way to reduce money from game :slight_smile:
It’s just one of the many ways which is utilized by RexXxuS.

And you have to understand it’s not directly comparable to real world economy even if basic principle is the same. The money is generated in very different ways. In real world it’s controlled by government which has specialists controlling it. It’s not same as bank in game generating unlimited funds without limit or thought or NPC paying you 50k for same item every hour forever from unlimited pool of money.

And finally yes, the money is removed from the game in results of trading gold (& wiping).
There are many ways to do this. One is taxes from Ingottocr command which is used by everyone looking to turn big amount of gold into credits. While this might seem minimal to you, 2-3% out of 1b is a lot & this is done by a large amount of players.

Physical objects are also lost in the game, forgotten in boxes, lost on death… And finally wiping forces players to prepare and those who take a longer break from game lose credits --> again some are removed from game…

Higher OCD levels are required to store more gold --> reason to remove 700m-1b credits from the game at once to store all those credits you get. There are tons of reasons why giving unlimited (or massive) storage for credits is bad idea.

Edit: While inflation happens in real world, it’s FASTER in game unless the credits are removed in various ways. Either rex has to provide enough ways to spend credits or utilize things like this to help him achieve balanced economy. It’s very hard to manage MMO economy.

Edit 2: And yes, statement of x amount of money is ridiculous in real world. I didn’t write my though properly before moving to next subject. But the difference how it’s controlled is still huge compared to games.

Edit 3: Sorry I know you’ve been writing your reply for long time, just wanted to add that in wipes players are more inclined to spend their credits. For examply by purchasing Garage ships with AC as one way of storing their credits. While that single person might get the same amount of credits back, the 7m credits is still removed from the game in order to save money. Not to mention the little 10 credits / block on recycle.

#17

Not really, check the video I linked in previous post :slight_smile:

It’s not same as bank in game generating unlimited funds without limit or thought or NPC paying you 50k for same item every hour forever from unlimited pool of money.

Actually I’d say it’s pretty comparable, in real world money is generated each time someone takes a loan from a bank working under fractional reserve system. Central banks can affect it by adjusting interest rates etc… but it’s far from control.

Does ingottocr command gives players credits or removes them :)? Sure there is a tax, but it creates much more credits - while it’s not very profitable it’s money supply, not money sink.

So let’s say I have 1b and bank limit is 100m: - so before wipe I need to convert 900m to gold and convert it back to credits after wipe. So what actually happens here?

  1. I buy gold from other people and this money goes to them so there is no sink here.
  2. Wipe happens - I lose 0 credits since I bought gold.
  3. After wipe if I use eb:ingottocr money supply INCREASES since new credits are created out of thin air :slight_smile: Remember that people who I bought gold from still have my original credits :slight_smile:

What it has to do with wipes and money supply?

And finally wiping forces players to prepare and those who take a longer break from game lose credit

Forcing players to prepare doesn’t affect money supply, punishing players who take longer break does, but I’d say it’s irrelevant since if they took longer break their money doesn’t affect economy anyways.

OCD 6 is enough and it’s quite cheap.

Like? Remember that major MMOs have no wipes at all.

Credits are currently both created and removed, to see if any anti-inflationary actions are required you need statistical data. Nerfing commodity trading was huge anti-inflationary action

While buying garage ships for ACs is money sink indeed it can’t be done on larger scale since there is increasing RP cost and many people already do it for profit during season. Recycling fee is a sink, but it’s quite small to have any major effect - for example last season single commodity trading run from AM factory to Saturn V could print 3m credits - enough to recycle 300k blocks :slight_smile:

#18

Obviously this discussion is pointless any further :slight_smile:
It’s going sideways & neither one of us (yes, also you :wink: ) are considering every possible aspect (literally impossible), OCD 6 enough? What after 4b credits (NA + EU OCD 6 filled) 0 space for any other items. Nothing is ever enough and this would drive them into upgrading OCD (or just quiting if their sole purpose was gather 260 stacks of 60k ingots without ever spending a dime).

I’m sure you’d have some clever comeback to it, but this just example how this discussion could go on forever, always a new aspect to think.

We also disagree on fundamental level if it’s good or bad & I doubt neither one of our opinions are going to change. We’ve given RexXxuS lots of good material to look into & decide for himself how to proceed. Pretty sure both our views are out in the open :stuck_out_tongue:

#19

“Remove all of that together” is a bit extreme.

When I talk to people new to HWS, the primary thing that makes HWS different than every other private server are the features, including EB. The features are the primary reason I have played on HWS. I like the passive income of EB, it is nice, but I don’t primarly depend on it, I actually like making credits and grinding things out in-game.

Yes, I’m a greedy hoarder (Look at all of the E&Z in my base and OCD), and that’s how I have fun, and I work hard to grind it out. If I can’t be a greedy hoarder, then that takes away a big chunk of fun.

If I were able to keep it, I’d be chasing down credits like a madman.

IRL Money wise, if I get keep EB, keep recycle, keep 400m, it’ll cost me $50.69 to save that much progress every 3 months. I’m a patreon meta, so that’s another $90 over the same, or 46.90 per month… for a game that I have already purchased, and if I’ve managed to make a billion by grinding, bye bye to my time spent doing that, and my money.

I liked the EB as it was before, I understand the decision, but would you in your right mind pay $46/mo to play a game that only allowed you to save partial progress? I’m not in my right mind and willing to donate, but if it becomes too much (and it’s getting there) it may just be me finding a way to play where I don’t progress any more than I can keep without spending way too much money. I think that in general giving people more for their money always encourages people to purchase something, what made the keep EB package strong was that EB was strong, and keeping your EB kept your credits. Now it’s just something I’m not going to be keeping this season.

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#20

I’ll just chime in as a person who is new this season and has seen/heard a lot of back and forth on the economy and is also a little qualified IRL to speak to some of this stuff I’d like to offer just the following thoughts. Since the conversation has gone to the overall game economy, I’ll chime in what I’ve been thinking for the last couple of weeks. I hope its helpful and informative to hear from a player new to this season. =D

  1. The economy in any video game should be primarily based on gameplay time. - On HWS today I feel this is true which is good. I don’t think it should ever be a scenario where the richest players just automatically get richer than anyone else because of their passive income. In this way, I like the stairstep of interest in the game. It ensures overall player eco growth continues to be based on gameplay time. Consider that some of the wealthiest players in the game barely login today. The players who should be rewarded by the game are the ones logging in and playing and keeping the servers active for the community.

  2. The economy in HWS seems to have been nerfed. - I have heard mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, it kept people who had a lot of money/power from gaining even more money/power without doing anything to earn/maintain it. On the other hand, its made it harder for players to mine what they need to play plus invest in their bank/OCD as quickly. It seems a nerf was well justified based on what a lot of people have said. I’m not sure if it was too much and people are just mildly complaining that its not as easy as it used to be or if people actually aren’t able to play in combat fields because they can’t scrape enough mats together. (I doubt it).

  3. Paid improvements in a game economy should reduce player gametime, not guarantee victory or power. In this season’s economy, I feel there are paid options that are fair reductions in gametime either for this season or for the start of next season. I do NOT feel any controversy about HWS making money/income is justified. As a person who runs my own business today and has overseen massive teams at major companies, It drives me crazy hearing you guys talk about any negativity around HWS making income. This server/service has CLEARLY taken a massive amount of time and energy to build up. It also clearly takes a lot of time to maintain. Its free to anyone who wants to play it. HWS staff and owners deserve to be paid something for this service if enough people are enjoying it and if the service they put on is good enough they deserve a profit. This is the dream of any entrepreneur who invests their hope/time/energy/life into a small business

  4. Season resets are important to keep players working against goals & to reward active players. Season resets should set us all back. Its a way to make sure the economy of the game doesn’t runaway/balloon for certain players and it ensures that we all have something to keep doing in the game. HWS/Empyrion isn’t about “winning” or “finishing” a progression, its about the journey of progressing. As long as we’re all set back in a relatively equal way we all have a relatively similar amount of progressing to do which keeps us all working against goals.

  5. The highest Bank and OCD levels are not required to play the late game. One of the things I’ve been noticing is that people feel pressure to make it to the highest levels of Bank/OCD. I’d like to point out the battles, tons of fun, shenanigans, etc we’re all having in game. HWS universe this season contains more than enough resources for us to play and enjoy the game. The highest OCD/Bank levels seem to be specifically for players who are wanting to play an eco game and are min/maxing time and the market. Most people are not min/maxing the eco.

Overall I’m happy with the economy of the game as it seems to be a pretty good challenge for a lot of people, even one that for people who don’t focus on it won’t be able to achieve passively. OCD 6 is the most important step a player can hit when it comes to maintaining some wealth season to season and it feels achievable. Any tweak I could offer would be around OCD 7. The jump from 6 to 7 is a huge one and 7 offers an important late-game pvp feature. OCD 7, if just mining gold bars and selling them on the market at 300 per ingot is 2.3M ingots of gold. I’ve recently spent about 6 hours on GG mining the big red deposits and have around 150k ingots. (Another way to say this is $7.5M/hour of income). This would equate to around 90 hours of dedicated gold mining gametime to farm enough gold to get it mid-season, not counting all the levels before then and assuming people keep buying at that rate. Alternatively at bank level 6 it would take just under a year of passive interest. If doing commodity trading which seems to be worth around $1.5M/hour it would take >460 hours of dedicated commodity trading. This step is the only one that seems to offer the player a meaningful in game feature that is extremely difficult to get in one season.

This is just my opinion, I hope it offers some helpful thoughts. I hope we all remember that most of us seem to be having a really good time in game and the HWS universe seems to be in a place where we can all have the resources we need to have that fun.

p.s. I’m not as comfortable with the cost of all the paid stuff vs the paid benefits so #3 isn’t an overall statement about all of the paid options or the balance, simply that there are some good ones.