Faction rebalance 2.0

Hey guys,

[size=150]OBSOLETE - NOT UP TO DATE! READ THE CURRENT STATE OF THIS TOPIC HERE: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=296[/size]

I want to share a small teaser to the coming big faction rebalance patch. Jascha needs to be there and it’s not that easy to implement. But that is on our next todo list. Please give feedback if you want.
One thing to remember: we added a first version of faction recognition. So now it is mandotory to follow the faction abbrev + name rule:

If you want to be in one of these factions you need the first initial letter of the factions at the end of your Abbrev and the full name of it in your faction name.

Examples:

RBA = ROR Bear Alliance -> this faction has an “A” in the Abbrev on last position AND “Alliance” in the name which works
RBC = ROR Beach Alliance -> this faction has no “A” in the Abbrev BUT “Alliance” in the name which does not work

FPP = Fancy Power Pirates -> this faction has an “P” in the Abbrev on last position AND “Pirate” in the name which works
FF3 = Free Freedom Pirates -> this faction has no “P” in the Abbrev BUT “Pirate” in the name which does not work

So in short: use L, A, P, H or T at the last position of your Abbrev and Alliance, Priate, Lawless, Trader or Hunter in the full name.

Remember: 3 characters for Abbrev and 20 characters for the name are allowed.

LAWLESS - L:
Member of L loosing 1000 CR per day
Member of L get one time 10k CR if they choose another faction
Member of L are allowed to attack everyone
Member of L are allowed to build everywhere

b HUNTER - H:[/b]
Member of B get 5k CR per day if they not died in that day (if they logged in within the last 24 hours)
Member of B may attack everyone except the Alliance member
Later: the RP (Reputation system)…

ALLIANCE - A:
Member of A get 5k CR per day as a sallary
Member of A get a faction ability command “fac:scan” to see enemies in a 10k radius. If an enemy got detected a message “@player: Enemy detected” comes up. This can be also done in HWS Connect or if devs implementing whisper function in chat
Member of A are not allowed to attack Trader

TRADER - T:
Member of T get per week a supply package of a lot of stuff for free. Similar to the donator package
Member of T can sell ships for free in Elemental Marketplace (if the devs fixing the damn telnet command for it)
Member of T get the option to get 25 pentaxit after they warped from one orbit to another one. -> Server: @USERNAME: Trader Bonus 25 Pentaxit? Type cb:yes or cb:no
Member of T are allowed to attack everyone except Alliance if needed. But never shoot first

PIRATE - P:
Member of P get 5k CR per day if they raided another player
Member of P are allowed to attack everyone
Member of P loosing 5k CR per day on their bank
Member of P can use one time per week a faction ability command “fac:treasure” to find a hidden base we setup in the universe with a lot of gold in it
Member of P are not allowed to build anything on PvE playfields

Remember: that is a proof of concept and not finished at all!

Looks really good, and I tried to poke holes in it by finding an unbalance. Looks really balanced, and provides plenty of opportunity for interaction for all factions. Will really take off well if the game implements a faction control feature that allows you to set friendly factions and enemy factions.

Especially like the trader warp bonus.

Is there a way to set access for diferant modules on a ship/station that traders can use for player to player trades? like a cargo box that is set to public, but the rest of the ship/station is private/faction?

I agree it seems well balanced, nothing to change for the moment i’d say.

Again very good work Rex, i see the universe getting more and more interesting in the coming weeks :smiley:

Looks good, will be interesting to see in action. Have you guys thought of any CR penalties for those that break the rules? Perhaps use a CR penalty used as “the warning” and if they continue perhaps jail time after multiple offenses. This way it costs people to do things we don’t like but still gives them the option to do it IF the rewards are greater than the risk/penalty.

Here’s a scenario that is real: our faction had 3 Pirates attacking our base the other day and they were draining our turrets by the typical a$$-tard fly around in circles or die over and over again. Maybe if there was a stiff CR penalty for this type of “undesirable behavior” people would either not do it OR perhaps they WOULD do it because the target is that important to them and they are OK with paying the CR penalty. Thoughts?

Not sure if they actually were pirates as they didn’t have a P in there alliance name or tag but their alliance name is Smugglers Union.

[quote=“Jelloburger”]
Here’s a scenario that is real: our faction had 3 Pirates attacking our base the other day and they were draining our turrets by the typical a$$-tard fly around in circles or die over and over again. Maybe if there was a stiff CR penalty for this type of “undesirable behavior” people would either not do it OR perhaps they WOULD do it because the target is that important to them and they are OK with paying the CR penalty. Thoughts?[/quote]

For that either the rule 5 comes into play or / and the prison consequence. If admins are not around it is hard to track this automatically. Maybe something we can research. At least we have tools to track indicators. So if this happens please report it here or via PM. Crawling the chat history during we are sleeping is kind of hard.
And USA admins coming into play as soon as the new USA server is up.

My only concern I have is that some people will take control of the market and make CR like mad then they will not follow the rules because CR won’t affect them… maybe instead of CR we could give items to help game play. Like if possible in game fraction items… or we could do both so there would be more reasons to join a fraction. Kind of what we have for the traders let’s give each fraction something unique cept for Lawless as the need to pick a side. Just an idea. Anyways other then that it looks good so far:)

I really like this draft of the rebalancing, so much so that it makes me want to have more than one character.

I think this looks good for everybody other than lawless factions. I think as a lawless you should get no penalty but get no perks. You build where you want and attack who you want. No ability, no speacial treats. If you attack alliance then the alliance and bounty hunters come after you. I like playing the game on an attack basis and a defence. However paying a fine every day for being lawless is not good especially as I don’t really use EC. Other than that I like all the other faction options. I would probably opt to be bounty hunter if these are what are set in stone but I don’t like restrictions on where to build :frowning:. Good work though guys

I can see where Daniel is coming from with regards to the lawless, being targetable I think is enough of a penalty that they shouldn’t have to pay a daily fine. No perks, no additional penalties for lawless makes sense.

Ignore my suggestion if it is impossible.

Alliance faction versus Rebels faction (or Ruler factions):

There is no good or evil side anymore. Just two (or more?) big Rulers trying to conquer the universe - which can be achieved by conquering all planets/orbits.

Ruler factions then should have the ability to conquer planets somehow. It may be by setting up more bases than other factions. It makes their income grow as explained later.

When universe is conquered, something cool may happen to the winners and something good/bad may reset for the losers (or not).

Admins may teleport to prison only those who break server rules.

Both Ruler members will instantly cause those they kill to teleport to prison. But maybe turrets and other factions should have this ability too, fixing once and for all this issue which should not exist in a truly “survival” game:

[quote=“Jelloburger”]
Here’s a scenario that is real: our faction had 3 Pirates attacking our base the other day and they were draining our turrets by the typical a$$-tard fly around in circles or die over and over again. Maybe if there was a stiff CR penalty for this type of “undesirable behavior” people would either not do it OR perhaps they WOULD do it because the target is that important to them and they are OK with paying the CR penalty. Thoughts?[/quote]

I think Prison may be one single PvP planet, but within range for a rescue mission. Personally I would like them to stay there for many many days, maybe weeks, or even forever until be rescued. lol Maybe they can live there and even mine/build, but without the aid of the market. And should be a planet low on resources, at least with no crystals - or only a very few of them; Let prisoners fight each other for crystals and hate that place like hell! >)

Both Ruler members should pay taxes to their factions. In exchange, they get all benefits from their factions, like prizes and abilities.

I think the money should not be created out of nowhere, but out of raw goods and services, and then transfered by rading, trading and faction prizes. So those faction benefits would come from different taxes. People “lose” money to their factions at a reasonable rate, but win some back when they accomplish missions for their factions.

Prize values should be expressed in percentage of how much money that faction has. Then members will try to make it grow as much as possible.

Hunters ARE Pirates, which also ARE Lawless, Anarchists:

Fuse these three factions. They’re all Lawless, enemies from all Rulers of the universe. I think we should call them Anarchists. They can live as they want, peacefully, or pick Hunter missions if they want, or just raid random people.

But then maybe they should be able to create their own custom faction with their own internal rules to dispute for the universe (maybe fusing both Alliance and Rebels factions to a single faction called Ruler, so anyone could try to rule the universe if they want).

Hunters: Who gonna give them missions? I think they should be like murders for rent. If someone want help to some dirt job, he just fill up an order and wait for responses. He must pay for the job so the hired hunter(s) gets payment.

Pirates only gets what they raid.

Traders:

Traders own the markets and banks. Those places should be PvE or have a very good fair system to prevent unfair violence.

Traders provide resources to anyone for profit. They charge money for each trading and bank operations.

Traders can live by just trading goods that people bring to them, but they can be Miners if needed. That’s because Traders must replenish the local markets on different planets they have business in. So they don’t deal directly to people. People buy/sell from those markets, and Traders just go collect taxes and replenish their storages when needed. (More on this: steamcommunity.com/groups/hwserv … 3853567898)

Maybe no autominers anymore? Each planet should respawn specific resources (or get specific meteorites), and people should sell them to Traders in order to make some money and get resources their planet doesn’t produce. Of course not eveybody need to mine forever. They can make a living by just accomplishing their faction missions and then buy resources from Traders with their payments. That’s why Traders need to mine every once in a while. I think autominer kills part of the fun. But I may be wrong since Traders may need to fly a lot too. Only playing to see how it goes, but I rather prefer players to actually travel to a source of ore to mine there and carry it to wherever it is needed.

Without Traders job, planets WILL lack the resources they don’t produce! Maybe local markets may start game (after wipes) with some of everything to let people out of their planets without waiting for traders to build ships and arrive there. Also, this issue suggests PvE planets OR planets with all kinds of resources (like Earth) should be homeworld for Traders only.

Since Traders may need a lot of pentaxits for selling and for jumps, maybe it is a good thing to make Trader faction have an ability to pay its members a percentage of the total profit in pentaxits. Personaly I think a spaceship game should not use as fuel something so time wasteful as crystals. So Traders could have this sort of an “autominer” for pentaxits as an ability.

However, the Trader profiting should be designed carefully, so lazy Traders don’t get same profit as those who works harder. Maybe Traders should pay a tax to his faction over the money they collect on markets. He keeps part of the money as payment for the service, and the tax goes to pay a common salary for all Traders.

Traders don’t pay taxes to Rulers factions. Instead, all buyers/sellers pay taxes when they trade: one tax goes for Traders profit and another tax for the Ruler faction that owns the planet/orbit in which they are trading from. That’s another good reason for Rulers to conquer the universe, which increases their income even when other factions trade on their conquered planets (like foregneirs or “colonies”).

So Traders should not worry about Rulers, but only about Pirates, because Traders are welcome on Ruler planets. However, maybe Rulers may try to attack traders which are providing resources for the enemy. If no penalty system is implemented to prevent Rulers attacking Traders, then Traders may request an escort or an extra payment for the risk of replenishing a given planet/orbit?

However, this last issue suggests Anarchists would not have a functional market on their planets. Since they’re not Rulers, but Anarchists, Traders would be afraid of being raid by one of them during the job, letting that local market go empty. So either Anarchists should have crystals in their home planet and travel to another orbit in order to trade anything or a penalty system may have to be implemented to protect Traders from being raid by “friendlies” in “friendly” zones. Now I think we’d better just let market work there but let Traders decide what to do: let market go empty on those planets or take the risk to go there collect taxes and replenish that market?

Finally, since we can’t set friendly factions yet (and probably it wouldn’t work for us, because we would have to add factions all the time and wait for acceptance) I think we should have only one major faction for each type (except for Anarchists and Ruler factions).

Only when Empyrion have something as cool as this, and no full wipe (ie. blueprints, money, market storages and conquered planets) I will play again.

What did you think, guys? =)

I kind of agree with others about “LAWLESS”. Just make Lawless the “default” or “human” faction. In most games “human” are the baseline. No real benefits or penalties but overall most flexible

[quote=“RexXxuS”][quote=“Jelloburger”]
Here’s a scenario that is real: our faction had 3 Pirates attacking our base the other day and they were draining our turrets by the typical a$$-tard fly around in circles or die over and over again. Maybe if there was a stiff CR penalty for this type of “undesirable behavior” people would either not do it OR perhaps they WOULD do it because the target is that important to them and they are OK with paying the CR penalty. Thoughts?[/quote]

For that either the rule 5 comes into play or / and the prison consequence. If admins are not around it is hard to track this automatically. Maybe something we can research. At least we have tools to track indicators. So if this happens please report it here or via PM. Crawling the chat history during we are sleeping is kind of hard.
And USA admins coming into play as soon as the new USA server is up.[/quote]

Well I think its more complicated. You have to drain ammo first with SV if you want to do some attacking and you do that exactly by flying around evading being hit while otheres whos not focused by turrets can attack. Draining with drone is obviously bad. After destruction of SV in attack there is a chance that you will do some more dmg on ground but if turrets are around you will die few times so whats draining and whats trying to get to backpack and digging under base for example.

I dont mean that you have to drain all ammo but in common enormous lag you at least need to try from where is fire coming and so, so draining all the ammo before starting doing dmg is wrong probably, at least very dirty. Flying above doing some dmg and getting out of range of towers is usuall tactics. You need turrets spend ammo it slows faction and they have to spend resources and time to make new ammo. In that time you are building ships, that one who is faster and have better economy can attack again while other one is forced to defend. Battles of large factions are not usually solved in one attack, its longer war.

So there will be a lot of drama around this for sure. Elfias prepares some popcorn for Rex

[b][size=200][color=#FF0000]Work in progress THIS MEANS ITS DRAFT LIKE FREE FUEL DOESNT MEAN INFINITE FUEL, FREE FUEL MEANS THAT ALLIANCE GETS SOME FEW OF PENTAXID TO CHASE CRIMINALS MORE EASILY INSTEAD OF COLLECTING FUEL
ITS A DRAFT TO TALK ABOUT AND TRY TO FIND SOMETHING WHICH CAN SUITS DIFFERENT FACTIONS HAVE DIFFERENT GAMEPLAY AND ALL WORKS TOGETHER.

PIRATES CAN SAY WHAT THEY THINK IT COULD BE GOOD FOR THEM OR WHAT WOULD THEY LIKE
LAWLESS CAN SAY THE SAME AND SO ON
I WORKED SO FAR ONLY ON ALLIANCE AS IM CURRENTY MEMBER OF ONE
I WORKED ON BOUNTY HUNTERS
REST IS TO BE ADDED, MAKE SUGGESTIONS

I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT BALANCED FOR EVERYONE BUT WITH DIFFERENT GAMEPLAY ALSO THE WAY EVERY KIND OF PLAYERS CAN FIND SOMETHING FOR THEIR SKILLS AND GAMEPLAY THEY WANT

ESPECIALLY THRANIR IS EXPECTED TOO MAKE SOME CONSTRUCTIVE POST[/color][/size][/b]Maybe its good to add ability to spawn some kind of SV for every faction, like if you get killed by tring to inviltrate and raid someones base you can spawn very absic CV jsut to get out of there is your stuff is destroyed in succesfull defense

I like basic draft i would stick to it. Lol this will be huge post :smiley:
I see some things which wont work:
All rewards in cash are very low. This is connected with autominers. If someone will give me 5k CR i wouldnt notice, its 100 gold ore and im getting 150 ore every hour. 5k per week? Not big deal.
Member of B get 5k CR per day if they not died in that day (if they logged in within the last 24 hours) - this is very hard to do fairly as bugs kills. You die many times without it being your mistake.
I like post above faction Humans. I would called it Citizens of Universe or so. They are out there somewhere but they dont have any allegiance to faction. Ppl who just came or havent read the rules.
I added more categories which allows to specify better what faction is meant to do and what is breaking of that faction belives.
Whole system can work only when respected. Alliance is good and simply ppl who wants to wipe Trader collony should not play Alliance. Combat log could be proof, but its up to players to if they want to make judge from admin by constant need of checking combat log.
If bounty on head cannot change faction. (pirate with bounty jumps to A where he cannot get more)
Delay between changing faction. Citizen do criminal acts and hides imediatly behing Alliance tag.
THis may look like against pvp as A enforces stoping conflicts, protects and fights crime. But on other side there are meant to be pirates and Lawles. This can create larger conflict of good vs evil with traders profiting on both sides.

[size=150]ALLIANCE - A:[/size] PvP, good guys trying to make galaxy a better, safer place
Credits: Member of A get 5k CR per day as a sallary
Free stuff: Pentastix to move more freely across galaxy and enforce law. Fuel for autominer?! Maybe ok as they need resources to sacrifice ships in combat.
Special: Member of A get a faction ability command “fac:scan” to see enemies in a 10k radius. If an enemy got detected a message “@player: Enemy detected” comes up. This can be also done in HWS Connect or if devs implementing whisper function in chat
Can attack: Piratess, Lawless, can ask for stoping criminal behavior and use force. Acts like peacekeepers in local conflicts.
Cannot attack: not allowed to attack first Trader, Bounty hunter (hunting for bounty is legal), Citizens. But can defend if attacked.
Bounty: These guys are expected to act the way there is no reason to put bounty on their heads. Probably bounty not possible. ANd they are not able to put bounties.
Respects roleplay: Good guys, police/military, honor, helpfull, fighting against criminal behaivior, never comits criminal acts,

[size=150]
(BOUNTY) HUNTER - H:[/size] PvP, lonewolves hunting its prey
Credits: some CR per day if they not died in that day (if they logged in within the last 24 hours) - this is very hard to do fairly as bugs kills. You die many times without it being your mistake.
Free stuff: special BhunterSV/weapon/handweapon for free per some time. Its risky job. Maybe epic weapons are just for this to make it spicy. Tiers based upon reputation?!
Special: Collect bounties
Can attack: Everyone with bounty
Cannot attack: Attacking anyone without bounty first is crime. Bountyhunters not marauders.
Bounty:
Respects roleplay: Neutral works for highest bid, Bhunters codex of honor - they dont belive in doing good but have some sense of honor, prestige, reputation. Collects bounties not wipes bases after that.
Later: the RP (Reputation system)…

Game realy needs bounty system
Some commands are needed:
co:putbounty:pilot/BA/CV/SV/HV if this is possible with core removing/renaming, not sure if ID stays
co:cancelbounty:pilot/BA/CV/SV/HV (with some penalty for canceling/time delay before cancel)
co:bounty:pilot/BA/CV/SV/HV
Bounty Board in HWS Connect
Some proof of that stuff was killed/destroyed (probably this can be done by “system”)
Suicide wont cancel bounty, bounty is canceled only when collected by Hunter

There is web browser game Pardus which already have very functional system of bounties (decent game for free time on travels btw) also they already have years of dealing with all kinds of abusing of bounty system. Maybe it could serve as inspiration, im not telling to steal their hard work ideas. Maybe they would gladly share who knows.

WHat will ppl do: Ppl will collect bounties to abuse this. Lets say i have bounty on my head 100k. Ill tell my friend to kill me he will get 100k and we will share. So there is some need for penalty for being killed like negative amount in bank or so. Bounty maybe can be collectible only by bountyhunter faction as only them are allowed to do so. Im not sure what can be done. Someone can create B faction just to collect bounty and credits and leave. Maybe reputation system can help as newly bountyhunters gets only some % of bounty so they have to work their rep to make this profitable.
Simply i would like to see some group of ppl working for money so even if faction is not able to take revenge some other faction will do that and all will be so automated that there wont be abusing.
Needs much more thinking, its just a draft too. But do this and polish it in time :slight_smile:

[size=150]
Trader - T:[/size] PvE, Peacefull guys who just want to get rich to fullfill they dream about owning farm with thousands of pumpkins
Credits: Trader is supposed to make credits. Not necessary to give free credits
Free stuff: supply package of a lot of stuff for free. Similar to the donator package. Supports warmachine on both sides
Special: Bank Interests
Can attack: Trader can defend only, including Aliens, lol
Cannot attack: Everyone, only defensive behavior
Bounty: Can put bounty on heads of other. Trader fights by money
Respects roleplay: Neutral, Pumpking collectors, farmers who sells goods on market for profit no matter who buys. Stands a side of armed good vs evil conflict, interested only in profit from goods. Good relationship with Alliance.

[size=150]
Citizens - C:[/size] PvEvP, they dont have any belives, some of them lives in peace, some of them are agressive, some of them rich and some poor. Some of them havent even read rules.
Credits:
Free stuff: survival constructor, 10 pumpkins, lol
Special:
Can attack: Everyone but its crime against Traders, Alliance, Bountyhunters
Cannot attack:
Bounty: Can put bounty on heads of other.
Respects roleplay: Neutral, Pumpking collectors, victims of robbery and violence protected by good guys

[size=150]
Pirates - P:[/size] PvP, dont bother to work at all when they can took stuff from others but they respects Pirate codex - If you kill everyone there will be noone to take from. Loves Vodka.
Credits: get 5k CR per day if they raided another player
Free stuff:
Special: can use one time per week a faction ability command “fac:treasure” to find a hidden base we setup in the universe with a lot of gold in it
loosing 5k CR per day on their bank
Cannot build on PvE
Can attack: are allowed to attack everyone including other pirates
Cannot attack: They are meant to attack
Bounty: Cannot put bounty, they are meant to deal with others by themselfs
Respects roleplay: Pirate codex of honor - They are not killers exept alliance which they hate. Thay are raiding for resources, profit, that means they tends to leave raided some stuff so they can return later for more. Sworn enemies of Alliance. Asks for ransom if they got it they leave.

[size=150]
Lawless - P:[/size] PvP, bad guys, gangsters, pimps, junkies. Scum of universe. Militant groups, marauders, anarchists. Enjoys violence, murdering, pillaging and dont care about honor, mercy or pride.
Credits: loosing 1000 CR per day
Free stuff: hookers, free outpost blueprint?!
Special: cannot build in PvE
Can attack: dont care about this
Cannot attack: dont care about this
Bounty: Cannot put bounty, they are meant to deal with others by themselfs
Respects roleplay: Scum of universe. Anarchists of Universe. Marauders. Cause mayhem and destruction, lives by violence.

Elfias i feel so much alliance love in that post, free to move evrywhere in the galaxy? unlimited fuel? lol you mad? evry faction should have the same conditions, shoulden’t be an penalty being the bad guys, thats the alliance job to hunt down the bad guys and make em pay not the other way around.

Yep. So much alliance love and so much hate for lawless. In fact it just sounds like you’ve just reworded what they already were and just added extra pro’s for the alliance and more cons for the lawless!

For me, playing as alliance, I would be bored if lawless and pirates had too many restrictions or alliance had too many benefits.

For me, playing as alliance, I would be bored if lawless and pirates had too many restrictions or alliance had too many benefits.

I wanted to post about bountyhunters as i know a game where bountyhunting is very well done and bounty system is on long enough to be well done and all of you “and if this is forbiden maybe i can find some workaround which is not exactly specified in rules” wont be able to find it.

Rest of factions are there to see that there can be such factions and with some im not realy sure what they need to do their job. So If we want to have some constructive disscusion we ahve to do something liek this.

Pirates should be somehow restricted so their stay in lets say inner ring is limited so they cannot wipe everyone, or they have to try hardly.

Alliance should be limited somehow that they can protect inner ring but have hard time to do somehting in outer ring which is supposed to be pirates in my vision.

Generaly vision is that peacefull players with families and stuff are grouped in inner ring with lower resources and they are forced to goto outer ring which is more pvp dangerous with pirates somewhere there.

There is alliance which guards inner ring most of all its hard job.
There are bountyhunters, brave enough and strong enough to hunt in dangerous space.
There are Traders on PvE planets supporting all through market as they like to farm and build and gather, pvp players likes to fight more
There are Civilians who cannot read so they are not able to read any rule as they maybe dont have 10 minutes.
There are pirates, they love to raid but they are aware that total destruction wont give them a chance to raid something valuable again so they have some kind of “mercy” while its more smartness
ANd they are Lawless who just dont care and dont respect anything EXEPT RULES OF THE SERVER. They do not greif, and they do not respawn kill etc, humilitating player on chat and so on, thats not what i mean by scum of Universe BLACKWING but they will backsab you by betraying alliances they made, shot you in back. THey are not implanting rats into factions to create paranoia between player.

So more oriented PvE players and weaker players are grouped together able to defend better. ALiance protects them. Bountyhunters expands avenging and stuff into dangerous territory. That territory is ruled by pirates and lawless and maybe some tough Alliance outpost is somewhere there

Good guys vs bad guys with Traders aside of this. HWS “We tries to make everyone happy”

I hope this explains my post at least a bit, sorry guys i dont have so much time to do this all :slight_smile:

Thanks to you all guys - a lot of input we need to sort out properly.
Really really hard to find the best or even good choice for everyone. That can influence the gameplay so much we don’t want to mess this up.
But IF we found the “best” way it will be just awesome and something I wanted from the beginning - a new game within a game - only on HWS. x)

We are working on - if you still have any ideas or inspiration let us know.