The structure belonged to RED faction.
One of our member putted a tower on golden globe. So the structure belong to RED and seems that also allied factions are taxed. (he didnt know that there were already 3 bases on golden globe and wasnt fast enough to delete it)
19-09-28 12:50 Structurelimit exploit
paid 431002 credits and 2 RP for exploiting (as faction) the structure limit with structure 1st Snake Tower 2.0(5724510)
I dont see the structure on my structure commander either. Maybe because was private and only the guy who planted it can see it? Maybe thats why also allied faction are taxed (private causing some kind of bug)?
Yeah Paxxo, I talked to Marius when it happened. There was no way for him to see that we already placed down three bases. By the time we figured the whole thing out it was already to late.
The rule maybe good for balancing, but the mechanics of how it’s forced down are just irritating and way to uncomfortable. Best imo would be if you simply could not spawn any more structures once the cap is reached.
Hi Server admins, could you please look into this as clearly it is an issue with the current system of penalties, it could be used to bankrupt another faction in an alliance and as thus an exploit. For us however it is just a simple misunderstanding, either remove this feature or find us a workaround. A response to this issue would be give reassurance to those affected.
This system has been in place for as long as I can remember, 5+ seasons I believe… It is to prevent exploitation of the alliance base limits on PVP planets (GG). I have been affected by this a couple of times although it has been a while and yes, it does hurt the wallet! The price is a bit steep in my opinion but it sure helps one not forget. Everyone in the alliance that is online when there are more than 3 bases down on GG gets the warning. A workaround is communication; just ask the other factions in the alliance to check registry and see if any bases are on GG before you lay one down… Although that has failed us before, it works most of the time!
But as it has been argued here for new people or new factions this is crippling specially when there is a language barrier. There should be a plugin in hws connect or in game if this system is to continue, as being unaware of what each faction has isnt fun. As a new player to HWS i feel that being punished this way has already made me rethink my options about playing on this server. If this continues i will just go back to renting a server with my friends and doing my own thing, being punished for other peoples actions is not on specially when noone can tell who is at fault.
This isn’t the technical truth but more your gameplay decision.
The most important thing is that the leader knows exactly what allys he accepts or not (@Firebeard)
In your case with hundreds of faction + ally members this is your responsibility.
For now it is indeed a bit limited to only chat warnings - which were ignored in this case and communication with the guilty guy on Golden Globe not being made.
We will work on a better way to display it on HWS Connect.
I’m sorry but this really isn’t good enough in my opinion. To say,
“The most important thing is that the leader knows exactly what allys he accepts or not (@Firebeard)
In your case with hundreds of faction + ally members this is your responsibility.”
This is not an issue of choosing alliances it’s an issue of an unfair charge imposed on factions that have ZERO control over a base / structure they did not place. As i and Brye have stated this has hit the newest players hardest and is unfair.
In addition is NOT our faction owner’s ‘Firebeard’s’ responsibility to manage the actions of another faction member’s actions. In light of the limited monitoring and limitations of possible actions that the rest of the individuals charged have to rectify this. The charge should not apply to all in the alliance.
I would ask a reimbursement of this charge on behalf of the new players. Also I did not appreciate Jascha’s instant dismissal of my initial post in regard of my incorrect terminology calling it a ‘Tax’. I was totally clear it was to do with the structure in the structure name and ID i had provided. A charge is a tax! Have some flexibility in future please.
I appreciate the efforts to change the warnings but is it a stupid question to ask why not prevent the structure from being placed in the first place if it is exceeding the limit?
You are generalizing my words without context.
My context was referring to the quote I posted above, nothing more or less
I understand your context though and we try to improve it and already improved it as fast as we could.
Well, think about this for a second again. Or let me help you:
After Alliances got implemented in Alpha 6+ and faction sizes grew on HWS, more and more players realized the potential with them.
First, they were exploited to circumvent offline protection, so they spawned ally structures with offline protection around the main faction base.
After we tackled this with a distance rule (after tons of drama), new ways of exploits came.
Splitting large factions into multiple small factions and ally up to circumvent the global limits.
And so on.
Your request to not apply tax or anything to allys might help few little new guys, but damage the hole PvP scene by the steps mentioned above.
An Ally system is just not a trivial thing as some think. An ally system, like in real life, is a careful chosen and maintaned thing where all need to know what is going on where at any time. At least this is what Empyrion is limited about with such low permission system or API possibilities we have for Alliances.
Anyways, to sum this whole situation up:
an exploit was done indeed: a guy fiddled around on GG with stuff, triggered the limits for everyone (or kick him from the Alliance)
new players got hit by his action
Option 1: all of you knock on the exploiters door and ask him for the money he “stole” from your new guys.
Option 2: You try the “admin” deals with it way And we helped you now with more log output. Basically the thing which was possible from your initial request:
We hope this will help in the future.
Because we have no direct access to the game code. We can only work with “post-active” solutions. Once action X is done, we react on it and do action Y.
This is the technical API limitation we are in. And as @0z pointed out: we have this system for years now and everything is fine IF this is being respected and understood in the first place - which brings me back to Option 1 I mentioned above.
Thank you for your reply Rex. I understand this is not a trivial thing and this must be challenging to find a balance. Although I do not completely agree that there aren’t other less aggressive measures to prevent structure exploitation for bigger alliances such as ours. I still believe that the penalties imposed in this case should be reimbursed to our faction members as gesture of good will, due to the fact we did not place the structure and the absence of warnings we got and ultimately were unable to instigate a change to rectify the structure exceeding limits.
We are always looking out for good will. But in your ticket you only mentioned you with issue:
We don’t know who got all affected by this. And we also can’t refund hundreds of players accounts, I hope you understand.
The best way would be as I said above: knock on the guys door who caused all of this. As far as I know, he knew what he was doing!?
You and the server owner will be pleased to know all your doing is causing a rift between newer players. Empyrion is a niche game for a small amount of players there are better games out there with the same type of game play that are not in alpha and slow moving. I for one will not spend a dollar on any service on this server till i see some better respect to newer players who come on your server to play this amazing modpack you have created, just remember the game is still in alpha and as a result the community is what drives games like this painting a bad image with the fact you do not care for newer players in factions or alliances is just degrading and immoral to them. this is my last post on this subject as i feel i have been thrown to the side because your pack has been running for many seasons and your veterans are not bothered what happens to those who come to the server seeking a new experience.
Please feel free to deactivate my forum account now. i have left empyrion. It seems that the entire community around player run events responds in toxicity to newer players. i have spent a week feeling like i have been punished, persecuted and thoroughly disrespected in all i have done. The only thing that kept me going was the player faction i was with. But after tonight and allowing people to grief during events i am leaving HWS. I will not endorse your server, it belongs with the rest of the RUST ones in their toxic state. Sorry this may sound harsh but new players get a raw deal and should avoid this server till the owner decides to treat people fairly and enforce the rules set down that everyone seems happy to flaunt when ever they feel like it.
By making a feature that has been in place for years more clear? I fail to see the issue. Simply not liking the mechanic? Not liking the response that it should be up to allies to coordinate amongst themselves?
Allies should have to coordinate and communicate. Empyrion added an ally chat for that purpose. Speaking from experience, having larger alliances means you need to keep closer track of your and your allies structures. Mistakes happen, yes, but that is the risk-reward for being in a large alliance.
To try and crucify the server owners for what amounts to a choice you and your faction mates make by participating in empyrion in that way is not right.
I implore you to give this serve another chance, it’s an amazing place with tons of content and great people. It’s unfortunate that this happened but it appears that unfortunately it was your alliance that left you out in the open to taxation. These mega alliances are typically formed by the ‘big hitting’ pvp factions that have billions in assets. I wouldn’t recommend joining them if you don’t have the capital to take these kinds of hits. Instead stick to the PVP Peripheral and build up some capital before joining them and that way any horrible surprises like this can be avoided.
I used to co-run one of the factions in an enormous mega alliance of about 30-40 active players and we never viewed this as a server-side issue. This is an issue of faction and player management and it was the responsibility of someone in RED (as Paxxo pointed ouyt) to realise they’d already placed a tower but nobody noticed until it was too late. Sounds like that player should be the one getting the bollocking…not a HWS system.
I will concede that sometimes taxation can go a bit weird and crazy, but in this casse I feel it was justified, especially as there have been cases of people exploiting GG/Arma limits in the past and this is there to prevent any foul play. I fear if this wasn’t in place and an enemy faction exploited the limits then we’d all be on this thread arguing about something different instead.
Best regards and give HWS another chance, and perhaps reconsider your alliance with the heavy hitters.
Wise.
Sorry but there’s nothing unacceptable about this. My mega alliance managed to live on GG without getting exploit fines and therefore you folks should be equally capable of doing so.
There’s a big difference between disliking this system because it’s working as intended (which it is)
And disliking this system because your alliance is getting punished by it, (which it’s also doing).
This is a perfectly valid and reasonable system and demanding it is changed simply because your alliance is not managing their structures correctly reeks of bad taste in my opinion.
I like you firebeard but this point of yours is below you and I think you know it. This is a valid system, here to stay. Direct your anger at the member of the RED faction who wasn’t paying attention or communicating his wishes to set up a base.
“I Co-run an enormous mega alliance of 30 active players and we never had an issue”
With all due respect, The faction I run has over 30 active members on its own, as do 2 other of our allies and a 3rd isn’t far behind.
It’s not quite the same.
Particularly with it being several seasons ago, the games radically changed since then.
We focus on pve and getting new players up to speed on how to play the game.
This system just wiped something like 100 million credits off the map in 2 days, as a flat rate penitly across the board, including players new to the server, effectively putting them into debt, for reasons beyond their understanding. In a wording that implies its the factions fault.
Some have stopped playing.
I’m pleased that the wording will be changed and that some effort is being made to at least indicate to people who to go pester for the refund when it goes wrong.
Right now alliances are always punished and never rewarded.
Which seems to go totally against the federation mission statement we get at the start of playing on hws.
Federation players should have some damping to this as they’re encouraged to make big factions.
It would be perhaps less painful if there was some ally payouts rather than always being taxed.
Like allowing more players into the ECC missions.
Allowing allies to join in on alien asylum and alien city.
Partal rewards for alliance victories in events so long as the ev:start was entered.
There’s a lot of positive infrastructure missing to support big groups and a lot of negative infrastructure to punish them.
I hope that changes to make it a better, more enjoyable rewarding experience in the near future.
Damn that sounds insane, but I don’t play anymore so it wouldn’t surprise me if alliances had completely ballooned similar to an East-West arms race.
We had a couple of taxes like this when people forgot to bring their ships back from ECC. I think at one point everyone in our alliance got taxed 22mil at the time (this was a few seasons ago, before the age of hyperinflation. So it would probably equal out to about 80-100mil). I know your pain my good Sir. But I stand by my point that it’s part and parcel of being in such a big alliance to communicate with one another about this. Placing too many bases on a playfield that is known for its strict base limits is really important. Nonetheless it’s a shame that new players just up and left, as i’ve made clear I think having new PVP players is really important.
But this is perhaps also another issue of having a PVE/PVP faction in an alliance with a mix of vets and new players. That’s a LOT for a new player to learn very fast.
Yup, that’s what we did. Went after the numpty who left their battlecruiser in ECC.
This is a really cool idea. Anything that extends roleplay is a massive plus in my opinion…speaking of (I’m shamelessly putting this here, especially as you said you manage a lot of people so they can check it out too), have you seen my Skill tree ideas? [I’m always looking for feedback!]
I think that’s more to prevent people getting pwned by big alliances. Naturally places like GG have always been made for INTENSE PVP action by the big factions. But I’m hoping in the long run we can get a couple of PVP ‘lite’ planets with tiny alliance limits so that smaller PVP factions can eek it out there and fight eachothr without getting super zerged.
But maybe for alliance-based features like an alliance bank or alliance OCD would be quite cool. They could cost astronomical amounts and not even be necessarily very powerful. An alliance OCD for instance could have only a couple of slots but it would be incredibly powerful in terms of moving resources. Especially with the weight system.
And we helped you now with more log output. Basically the thing which was possible from your initial request: