PvP Change Suggestions - Constructive Feedback Please

HWS General Discussion
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@RexXxuS @Jascha @Wiseman738 @BigRed @TacoIsland @Supreme_Admiral @TheRaven @Alfonzfred @Abrum13 @Vandruis

So, I have tagged most of the seasoned pvp players I know in here, and some new guys as well who are active in the current pvp meta. What I would like to do is discuss some changes to the current pvp meta that will make it more enjoyable for all. (Hopefully). If possible, it would be nice if we can stick to the task of addressing points, and providing constructive feedback.

PvP Change 1: CV Caps on PvP hotspots

In past seasons CV combat was super laggy. In 7.0 there seemed to be optimizations in place that made large fights possible (6 - 10). Last night though, we had upwards of 16 - 20 CVs in Blackhole duking it out.

The result? I believe there was between 6 - 8 disconnects total. People crashing, cvs sitting there idle and people relogging to find themselves 200m away from their CV dying in space. Relogging back into the game would take 5 - 10 minutes… and in short, it was a mess.

The problem is Empyrion is not in a stage where it can support battles of this size and with factions growing larger and larger, we will continue to see some factions deploying a larger number of CVs. Now, I realize this is a detriment to larger factions like Taw/GRG/TPP, but I would like to propose a CV cap of 6 CVs per faction in PvP hotspots - those hotspots being Blackhole and Homeworld.

Now, this will cripple larger factions ability to deploy their vast resources and players - and that sucks. That said, it would dramatically improve the ability of everyone to be able to enjoy a CV fight without crashing from the game.

Upside
CV combat would be more enjoyable

Downside
Larger factions would be at a handicap

Proposed Alternative

We cap CVs in hotspots to Class Size 1, and not at the upper limits of Class Size 1, but at a point where you have to pick and choose what type of CV you want to fly. A heavy tank with max guns that moves slow, or perhaps a nimble CV with fewer turrets but more thrust and less armor… or somewhere in-between.

Upside
Quicker CV fights which will hopefully lead to less lag
CVs will have less total turrets, creating fewer entities(?) on the playfield, creating less lag.
Create diversity in CV builds allowing larger factions to build multiple designs, so their larger numbers still mean something.
Summary: More enjoyable fights due to less lag and more ‘kills’.

Downside
No gigantic mega-ships - less awe factor
More control on “how to play”

PvP Change 2 - Increased Gravity on PvP Hotspots/Resource Rich areas

A lot of you new guys weren’t here in 3.0 and 4.0, but the Gold planet than had really heavy gravity. While it was a pain to get around because a wrong step would break your leg, it did force players to use more thrusters on their ships in order to fly effectively.

Here is why I think we should bring it back:

HV/SV as of right now can be built up to 7k with class size 1. This is creating fights between SV/HV that can last over 15 minutes, which based on survey results is not what most people want. Increasing gravity will do the following:

  1. Cut down on blocks as players add more thrusters/devices to their ships.
  2. Give HVs another advantage that they sorely need right now, as they require fewer thrusters and thus could have more armor. (Right now SVs have macro fire giving them a lot more DPs on HVs)
  3. Make it difficult for Svs to tank base. In the current state of the game, the right SV can come in and tank a base and destroy turrets using macro fire. They will get damaged, but a single SV can still strip an entire base of turrets off.
  • Bases shoot out thrusters, Svs flop to the ground and get pounded.
  • Less armor overall, so they can’t afford to just fly into a base and tank.

Upside
Shorter PvP engagements
3 bases will be able to defend themselves more effectively, as SVs won’t be able to tank well.
Create a more challenging PvP environment

Downside
Lots of vehicles will have to be redesigned
Heavy gravity does require some getting used too

1 Like
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@RexXxuS Silence by our vocal player base should be interprested as agreement :wink:

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Not my decision.

Hard caps are in general tricky. Especially in space.

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I only had one disconnect (my PC over heated) in season 6.5 when CV’s where limited to size class 3. However, I wasn’t flying in a 100,000 block CV either. Nor did I max out the class… I like the thinking and it might work but maybe Class 2?

Again not a bad idea, How will this effect RCS? 400 RCS might be a pain.

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You can build a fairly large class size 2 as well, but you are right probably best not to go to an extreme and give it a test first. We can always lower if it continues to be an issue.

Shouldn’t be too bad, I’ve played on high G planets before. You’ll have to start making design decisions though, but I think that is a good thing considering the tank svs most people fly around in these days.

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Class 1 is still far too large for the smallest class.

You should not be able to make a 7000 block damage soaker, or a 44 turret monster CV at Class 1.

How about 1000 block limit for Class 1.

Devices (especially the laggy ones like thrusters) are still far too cheap, and it’s stupid that they all cost the same Tris. An artillery turret is not a window and should not be weighted the same towards the BP Class size.

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I think Rex said somewhere they can’t limit the number of blocks at the moment, so we would have to do Class 0.90 or something.

What do you think of higher gravity on PvP though? The higher number of thrusters would naturally reduce the amount of blocks as you have to add more devices.

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There are two sides to this coin; higher gravity would be a severe disadvantage to the SVs though, wouldn’t affect HVs that much. And even though with macro fire SVs can put out higher DPS, either the SV has to be really close or the HV stationary, or the HV pilot is an idiot.

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Higher gravity also affects a HVs ability to move over difficult terrain. Higher gravity will have a bigger impact on SVs - as they should. SV should not be the tank - HV is the “base destroyer”.

@TacoIsland What is your thoughts on current SVs and fights? Too long? Too big? Should SVs be able to take out a full base of turrets?

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My thoughts are in line with yours, SV vs SV takes awhile, SV vs HV varies greatly on the design of the HV and targeting, but SV vs BA is another that varies depending on the skill building and location of the base vs the tactics used by the SV pilot. I tried last season to rush into HPGs tower against the red wall but had to pull back due to the damage of multiple bases and approx 100 turrets not liking me. Even with macro fire I couldn’t remove a turret as I already lost my weapons.

Conversely I have removed many bases without taking a hit at all. Even with a full turret load out without using macros.

At this point it is really starting to focus more on the skills of the builder rather than the size of the vessels IMO.

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In your opinion though should a class 1 SV rushing 5+ bases be a death sentence? I agree with your statements about skill, but I have also seen a SV tank a full base of guns. It wasn’t a pretty SV after, but it also wasn’t dead.

And what do you think the solution to this should be?

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I have always wanted a hard cap on RCS devices. It is stupid that you can have so many that anything can turn on a dime. If RCS could count more towards size class (is that even adjustable?) that might help restrict builds in a reasonable way. A large vehicle would be slow turning as it should be, and a small light one would be required for maneuverability.

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Eleon tried that back in 6.0 (I think it was). It was so disliked that it was changed a week or two later. Essentially everyone was flying around in bricks that could not turn.

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What Grizz isn’t suggesting nerfing RCS, just nerfing the amount of RCS you can use or making them count more towards class size. I agree it’s a good idea - because you can then either build a small and nimble SV or you can max out your blocks and RCS and make a flying brick that won’t be very useful in combat.

Though, it still wouldn’t solve the challenge of 6+k block SVs flying around and SV dog fights lasting 30 minutes or more.

1 Like
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@RexXxuS

Based on the feedback on the forum and the chatter in global - most people agree that SV/HV fights need to be shorter.

I have 3 potential solutions to this:

  1. Increased gravity on planets.

  2. Increase damage to SV/HV from everything by 250%

  3. Cap class sizes on SV/HV to .9 or 1.0

I do not like 2 as it would impact all players, and 3 would require a major rework of everything.

That said TAW and Op4 both have a SV specifically designed to tank bases. We attacked GG the other day and saw this monster of a SV take base fire from 3 bases… and then fly away. A class 1 SV should be able to do this lol.

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Increasing weapon damage and reducing hardened steel s hit points seems the most obvious way to go in the short term.

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What makes you say that? It seems to me increasing gravity is the best way, as you can tailor it to certain playfields. My issue with increasing damage and reducing hitpoints is that it will end up causing less seasoned players to get vaporized.

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To prevent ping pong + time waste please make tests on your server e.g. and suggest a gravity number from where we can start.

Dunno yet about it.

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I don’t have a test server, but I would suggest we start with upping Homeworld’s gravity to 1.75 or 2 as a test. That’s a bit higher than Lavaworld, but Homeworld has a much higher amount of resources to it. If the test works out, then I would suggest implementing it on all the pvp hotspots/homeworld/resource crust planets.

This might seem a bit extreme at first, but I think it will prevent players from being able to just simply rush a base and then fly away afterward.

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My SV is small.

As long as I can still have the words “Eat Me” on the back it’s just big enough.

Several factions have SVs that are on the upper limits of class 1 size, mine was not made to attack bases, but to counter HVs. So if anything the damage from all BA turrets could be increased against hardened steel blocks as a better counter, but I will keep flying the Super Mega Fun Time for awhile till I design another SV.