COLLECTED HWS Economy / Faction Feedback Thread

  1. [quote]Scruffy - The price’s can be whatever, as the price is relative to how much the resource can sell for. ATM, an Iron Ingot is worth 4EC at the market. So a level 10 Mine costing a total of 5.4mil EC to upgrade, would require selling more than 1.35mil Iron ingots. And by selling those ingots, the market price drops, ultimately as low as 1 EC. Meaning you’d have to sell 5.4mil Ingots for 5.4mil EC. Considering the Mine would output 1000 Ingots per hour, it would take that mine 5400hrs to pay for itself if market bottomed out at 1 EC per ingot. That’s 225 days, or 2/3 of a year.

It is not smart business to invest in something that won’t break even for 225 days.

(Or more realistically, lets look at upgrading just to level 2: Level 2 is 100k btw, OP says 200k, but must have been changed. 100k EC at current market value of 4 EC per ingot is 25k Ingots, which is doable without dropping market value more. The level 2 Mine returns 20 ingots per hours, so to pay for itself, to break even, it would take 1250hrs = 52 days, just short of 2 months. As opposed to mining metoers for the Iron, that is 8.33 meteors, which can be mined in a single day).

So are the prices good? Answer is no. But it’s not really about the AM price, it’s about the economy. Leave the price as is, fix how the market works, so it’s more stable. Once Economy is stable, then I would suggest a price for upgrading the Mine be relative to how long it would take to repay itself. I think maybe 2-3 weeks would be a suitable time period for it to repay itself. Given the nature of the game, how much people play etc, 2-3 weeks is a long time in Empyrion.

Supply vastly outweighs demand, so with a dynamic server value based on supply/demand, the price on resources will always drop to the lowest possible value (except for pentaxit, who’s demand outweighs supply). Thus making resources practically worthless. The Autominer is based on a fixed value to upgrade, and fixed value return. While the server market is based on changing values. Thus the autominer cost is directly relative to current market value for the resource.

Ultimately, with the current system, the already saturated market for ores will be further saturated by the autominer as players upgrade their mines. It’s just further breaking an economy already broken.

I LOVE the idea of Economy, and the Autominer (AM is kind of like another leveling system, something to accomplish) and in a different economy, this would be real fun!

Not directly related to this thread, but I believe AM will work well once the HWS Economy is significantly altered to be sustainable. :slight_smile: I won’t go into detail on that here, it’s kind of off topic.[/quote]

  1. [quote]NafreiuX - I was thinking of ways how to stabilize the economy and came up with such ideas:

  2. No planet should have all 4 basic resources. A planet should have 3 or less resources, thus increasing the demand and need to buy via trade system.
    In conjunction to this,

  3. Autominers should use pentaxit as fuel. The ratio could be 1:1 for example (lvl1 AM needs 1 pentaxit/hour, lvl2 needs 2/hour and so on). AM could be fueled with some new chatbox command,taking pentaxit from your inventory (e.g. AM:fuel:iron 24 - 24 pentaxit for 24 hours of lvl1, 12 hours of lvl2 and so on). That way it encourages players not to relly entirely on Autominers and thus travel for resources around the solar system.

  4. I can’t remember who wrote that the margin (or the difference between demand and supply prices) is too big but that’s actually what makes players (and especially us traders) refrain from buying too much. Buy price never gets below sell price - this state is because none of the resources gets ever depleted in trading system - because of resource abundance. I believe that if 1. is implemented it should help to reduce the margin.

  5. Reputation Points for traders can be used as a price modifier. I used to do trading in EVE online which has a very sophisticated economy - what we could use from it in this trading system are the price modifiers and tax rates.
    I’ll provide some examples later if you’re interested Rex :slight_smile:[/quote]

  6. [quote]Blackwing - Hey all ^^

I was looking on the chat and saw already some pps complaining about the auto mining and i think they are not wrong as it kills a bit the survival aspect.

What about instead of free ores doing nothing, is it possible to give some kind of upgradable bonus when you actually need to mine some ores like (it’s an example) :

bonus iron : lv1 +10%, lv 2 +20% etc… so you still to go looking for deposits and meteorites and pirates can still hunt for cargoes ^^, it will be like a specialization, and you upgrade it with EC.

i don’t know if you can influence the numbers of ores players are collecting with your tools.

That’s it for the idea :slight_smile:

Blackwing[/quote]

  1. [quote]Kibri - I would like to propose we start using and eventually update the terms used for in-game and out-of-game friends, allies, and enemies. There seems to be confusion over what they are or what is meant when using some of these especially to newer players.

I believe RexXxus has mentioned he is going to re-do the entire alignment system so keep this in mind as well and hopefully this can aid him in selecting new/better/more clear terms for that system?

I believe the terms at present are:
Faction (game mechanic term supported by developers for your “guild”, might say closest friends?)
Alliance (RP term used on this server to represent a specific group in the storyline made up of many “factions”, but not supported mechanically by developers at present)
??? (RP term used to describe a group of “factions” with same ideal or principles for the story, but not a specific assigned RP alignment, this is also not a mechanical term used or supported by developers at present. Currently these are called Alliance, Pirate, Trader, Bounty Hunter, etc.)

Discussion of each term:
Faction is a term that the game developer use which we are pretty much stuck with unless the developer choose to rename it, and it works well enough it seems to fill the “guild” role.

Propose using Alignment to represent “RP factions” i.e. Alliance, Pirate, etc.to avoid confusing with game supported term “faction”.

Alliance is a RP term that fits the Homeworld universe and storyline and I believe can be a little confusing but something explainable and understandable to players once they are aware.

Propose using Coalition? This term needs to be simple and easy to convey meaning. Some games call these Coalitions (EVE ONLINE), other calls them Alliances (too confusing for this server as Alliance is a RP facton/alignment), and yet others call them Clans (maybe a little too primitive for a space game? I believe Coalition was very effective in a game like EVE Online to describe the out-of-game or METAgame organization of players that are not mechanically supported by developers. A coalition can even be a temporary partnership of differing alignments for common grounds or purposes.

Any feedback or discussion is welcome. This is all just my opinion, observation, and based on the confusion I had when joining the server.[/quote]

  1. [quote]Archangel - Hallo, most of you know me like Archangel FaB Founder.
    I’ve been playing on this server for a while, about 90Hours or more… So i know how the server works.
    First of all: Thanks to Server (rexxuss and C.) For the big and Good work they do in ruling a server in Alpha Game, continue like this guys!!!

After Thanks now i enter the core part of the discussion: ADVICES.

First Advice: PVE vs PVP

In my opinion there have to be only ONE (1) PVE planet with PVE Orbit. AKUA, Temperate and easy to live on where noobs can spawn and make theyr first experiences Safe from PVP players. After a player leave this Beginner Zone he will never be able to return (Other than resetting his Char cb:reset). I don’t know if this is possible but you should generate a command like cb:Ready with an answer cb:yes/no and if you answer yes you and the CV you are on will jump in the OPEN UNIVERSE, from there you can go everywere in the galaxy exept from the starting planet. Starting planet should have only basic Ores, Neod Sat Ere Zar should be acquired thru eb:buy:*** no possibility of gathering them.
Make a galaxy with a lot of planets moon etc… so everyone will find a suitable place where to set a base.

Second Advice: Economy

Like in real life economy is very difficult to understand. Too many Variables… Too many risks.
I dont know if things i will say will be possible to be done but i ask :stuck_out_tongue:
Is it possible to calibrate Meteorites in base of the Cost of the ORE? for ex if the Iron Ore cost will drop under 5 then metheorite of iron will no longer fall or at least at a lower rate, so people have to buy it.
Please lower the difference between Bid/Ask price… it is impossible i sell an Iron ingot at 3 and i buy it al 15… No one will ever buy it. If you keep this difference between 2-5 than you will see more people buy ores. This is for ores, for other mats it has to be a Market choice.
Let Rare Mats like ere and Zarc be only minable on planet, no asteroids, if you see that the level became too low make some event(the spawning of a Planet richo of them or somethink like it) it will keep market price more competitive and will force Traders and Alliance to keep and defend planet rich of there rare materials.

Third Advice: Respect of Rules
If you write rules… Player have to submit there rules and respect them.

Sorry for my English… I am Italian… and THX once more

My 2 Cents

Archangel[/quote]

  1. [quote]Scruffy - Economy:
    This subject needs it’s own heading, as there is a tonne of stuff that goes into a working economy. I think Economy has a lot of potential to add to the game by way of wars, alliances, events, and content for PvE’ers and PvPers alike. So it’s worth putting in time and mechanics to make it work really well. Civilizations have been made or broken over Economies all through history. It’s a huge pivotal thing in life. Game economies have some basic principals to work well:

  2. Availability/convenience: Players will use a market where it is the most efficient way of obtaining something they need, or selling something they don’t. If it’s not convenient, they will use a more convenient method to obtain what they need. (see supply and demand). This is the NUMBER 1 thing that affects Economy above all else!

  3. Supply and Demand: Supply must balance with Demand for a working stable economy. Players are what balance this, it cannot be forced by server/admin. The market will always try to balance itself, one way or another.

  4. Price Range/Value: The larger the numerical Value on an item, the wider the range of values a Trader can change their price and be more competitive with market, and other players.

  5. Market Value: Currently, the value of ingots is set by server. This is bad, Market value should always be set by players and supply and demand.

  6. Control the flow of currency into the market, and/or provide a money sync to keep total currency stable.

  7. Availability/Convenience:
    Currently, we have the server market which is global, a player can buy/sell to server from anywhere in game. This is the ultimate convenience, and so people use it regardless of price. Availability is also endless, as there is always stock (supply exceeds demand). Currently, there is only one place to trade via server tool, the Elemental Market (EM). However, the EM is 3 jumps away from most outer systems, while every other system is only 2 jumps away from any other system. The EM is farther away than every other system in the universe. From a business standpoint, this makes absolutely no sense at all. No one builds a shop the farthest distance they can from their customers, as no one will use it. HOWEVER, there are game mechanics to consider:

  • PvP needs to be considered, Admin i’m sure wish Trader ships to be attackable, meaning to get large amounts of stock to the shop, you need to manually take it there and risk being ambushed and robbed.
  • It cannot be exploited by placing items in the shop at one location, traveling somewhere, and withdrawing it again for use, and thus removing risk of loosing it in an ambush.
  • The EM must be accessible to players to make it cost effective over simply using the global market.

What I suggest is an extensive rework of the EM and global market. And fun RP additions to the game

  1. Fix the Global market prices to exorbitant caps. To facilitate Market price being set by players while capping the market to prevent total crash of economy.
  2. The player-to-player EM and Bank transactions be made global, so people can trade/bank from anywhere, and tax every transaction (shipping costs)
  3. The physical EM location be centralised, within 1-2 jumps of every system (Perhaps a very short 5AU direct jump out from Elemental System). Buying/selling from this location will be tax FREE. (People making large purchases etc are better off traveling there manually, this also opens up attacks from pirates etc).
  4. Money used in buying/selling from EM (items and ships) is exchanged between customer and owner’s BANK account. Not direct to the owner. (When money magically appears in shop owners pocket and owner dies, they loose that money. This is a major problem as the owner has no idea WHEN someone will make a purchase, can be abused/exploited).
  5. TAX price will be a % of transaction. EG.1 > 5% of any purchase/sale will be taken as ‘tax’ from both buyer (or shipping cost) Lets Say Bob buys 1000 Iron Ingots from Jesse’s shop at 10 EC per ingot. Bob pays 10k EC for items, plus a 500EC shipping tax. Jesse receives 10k EC. EG.2 > Sally has 660,500 EC she wants to bank. She deposits ‘all’ into the bank. 627,475 EC goes into the bank, and 33,025 EC is paid in Tax (shipping cost) – So you can see that for large transactions, it’s advisable to visit the physical EM or Bank to save money.

To facilitate player interaction, with cargo runs and pirate attacks, events can be used:

  • Frequent events can be held, or 'Job’s advertised by some Mega admin syndicate. Eg. Cargo run from planet x to system y. 1,000,000 EC in trade goods must reach Uranus. Anyone assisting in escorting it there will be paid handsomely. [Meanwhile, The Alien smuggling syndicate cannot have this convoy reach Uranus, or it will seriously drop the price of their smuggled goods, this convoy must be stopped. A Bounty is offered to Pirates to see that the cargo never reaches Uranus, and they will be paid handsomely to stop it]. <- these job’s can be advertised separately to the separate faction groups according to their Aligned faction. (With hints that opposing faction interference should be expected).
  • At some point, players can launch their own event with Admin approval, and sanctioned by the Faction group the player is aligned with. Player/faction fronts up the 1 Million EC (or whatever) for a Cargo run, and recruits players to participate. If the cargo arrives, the player/faction receives a profit, maybe 40% (so they get 1.4 million EC), and participating players receive payment. Or maybe the participants are paid out of the profit margin (In which case, increase profit). While the opposing faction can arrange their own ambush, and if successful, will score a comparable ‘profit’ from the looting. Some merchandise might be damaged in the battle, leaving only 400k EC worth of cargo, which is divided among the participating pirates.
  1. Supply And Demand:
    Currently, server starts Economy with a medium price for goods, and the server auto-adjusts prices based on supply and demand. meaning the more in storage, the less the price, the less in storage, the higher the price. Due to the game allowing for far more resources to be obtained than needed for use, supply vastly outweighs demand, and the market price only ever goes down, never going up. Without admin intervention, this means the prices will bottom out at the lowest possible number (1EC? or 0EC?).
    If Server resets the economy, putting prices back to medium. The exact same thing will repeat itself. If resetting the economy is known to be a regular occurrence, players will hoard their resources and wait for the price reset, then bulk-sell all their resources for best price each reset. This simply continues to break the economy, as the Server is essentially giving limited players a set price for their resources. There is no supply and demand. Why not simply do away with dynamic pricing based on supply/demand, and offer players a fixed price for each resource?

Something we NEED is a way to balance supply with demand. Or the price on ores will always plummet to the lowest possible value. Perhaps disable Meteors entirely, and make starter worlds off limits to anyone in a Faction (or just enable metoers on starter worlds for new players). Then reset certain resource PvP worlds, or have 1-2 Resource PvE that reset… not sure. The point is, there is MORE ore than people need to use, it’s flooding market and dropping price. We need to limit ores, or have an ore sync that removes ore from the game without flooding market…

  1. Price Value/Range:
    A healthy economy needs room for variance in price. for players to offer competitive prices vs other players or server, they need space to adjust their price. The more space there is to adjust the price, the more competitive a player can be on price, and the more trade there is.
    EG. If an iron ingot sells for 4EC at market, and buys for 9EC, this leaves a range of 5 in which a player can offer a more competitive price to players. If 2-3 players are competing, or offering similar trades, that leaves VERY little price range to give everyone the best price. However if that server price was altered, to instead sell the Iron for 40 EC, and buy it at 90 EC, that leaves a range of 50 in which a player can offer a more competitive price. Those same 2-3 players have MUCH bigger room to haggle and everyone will get a better deal. More Room for competitive pricing means more trade.

  2. Market Value:
    For a sustainable Economy, market value must be controlled by players. It’s also a lot more fun for players, and promotes trading, rather than simply hoarding and selling to server when price goes up. Leave the server as a fixed price market, and allow player trading to find a ‘market value’. Players will find their own market value for items within the limit set by server. The key is that server must have a max and min cap for buy/sell to set margins within which players can sell. This is a fail-safe so players are not scammed, and market doesn’t completely crash.
    EG. If server set a fixed price of 500 EC to buy an Iron Ingot, and 50 EC to sell one, players will look at that and say WTF? That’s ridiculous! EXACTLY, it is, so now you find a player who will give you a better deal. A Player can sell you it cheaper, and buy it for more, and thus Market Value for items is set by players. Initial prices should be set relative to current supply/demand. And be altered until they line up with each other. It’s best to start the prices WAY outside Market values, and slowly narrow it down as Players find a value for items. The server price is mostly a ‘guide’, to stop players extorting others too much, or scamming players. Even if a player/faction dominate a particular market, they can never charge beyond server limits (or people will simply purchase/sell from server)

And when Economy settles, and REAL market values are found by players supply/demand. Then you have a price comparison to use for money sync’s, and other features like the Autominer.

  1. Currency flow, money entering or leaving player economy.
    One major failure of game economies is not controlling the inflow and outflow of currency. Currency itself has a value, based on what it can get you. When the economy has a huge amount of currency, but nothing to use it on, currency becomes worthless, so no one trades for it. Conversely, if currency is hard to obtain, it becomes itself very valuable, and prices drop all around. Controlling how much EC enters circulation, and how much EC leaves circulation helps to maintain a stable Economy. ATM, there is no control over currency, as players can buy/sell unlimited amounts of resource to server for currency. I’m not sure HWS economy can be altered to control currency flow… not without drastic changes. So at the very least, it can provide money syncs. If the server moved to promote more player trades by fixing server prices very high/low as i mentioned above, this will limit the currency entering the market, as people won’t sell directly to server so much.
    Money Syncs: Autominer is somewhat of a money sync, as in you spend currency for no direct/immediate return. It removes currency from the game. However, that mine then produces resources, which you then sell back to server for currency, so it’s not technically a money sync. A consumable item such as pentaxit could be considered a money sync, as the currency is not returned by any means once you purchase the pentaxit. Taxing players for various things is another possible money sync. Possibly charging players for a shop space. Or taxing a player trade via trade tool (if a global trade system is implemented). Perhaps each trade takes small percentage of items traded, or costs a fixed amount of EC per trade. Anything that removes money from the game (not from player to player, or returns something of value to a player).
    There might be other ideas for money syncs, someone suggest stuff.

I had a heap more stuff to say, but this is already a massive wall of text… So I’ll leave it at that for now. And more will come out in discussion perhaps. I’m happy to explain/debate any of the above aspects. :slight_smile: Economy is a complicated issue.
Cheers
Scruffy[/quote]