One final question back on topic for the garage this season: Will all the other ships be downgraded to vanilla+overlimit? Like the CV miners? Because if the SV/HV’s are getting that treatment, I feel as though the CV’s should too.
But with this update focusing on optimization for pvp how are we going to be able to tell what caused the difference in the performance? We are no going to be able to tell what improved it. We should leave the gun limits the way they are for this season to try the optimizations and then remove them the next season to see what the difference is.
Vanilla gun limits increase perfomance by a huge margin, and it adds to recent optimizations. Increasing weapon limit was a bad idea from the start. Waiting 3 months to see a boost of perfomance doesn’t look lika a good idea to me.
RexXxus,
I appreciate your efforts, and your work to make this right. However, I wanted to ensure my voice was heard, I wasn’t expecting to say this any time soon (no offense) but I agree with SnowMan. It’s not our problem to solve Eleons problems - HOWEVER - with saying that, I think we should help as much as is feasible. Should we redesign HWS to help them? Not in my opinion. Should we change some things and try to? Yes, I think we should. I think improved shields may be too OP, especially if you are improving them “a lot” the base shields are good-ish, maybe a 3 or 4 second faster recharge time to force enemies to keep a continued attack to keep its shields down, but otherwise it probably doesn’t need altering. You have done a great job with most of the limits and garage ships will damage performance anyway - which was another excellent idea that probably gathered about half your playerbase here in the first place.
However, the only over limit base guns were the two artillery guns. Redesigning every base to remove two artillery guns is pointless - and annoying since you can now only have two sides of the base covered, or expose the guns to more fire by putting them on a corner. I would really love for that to go back to 4, and maybe reduce the shields to how they where last season?
Lastly, I understand Eleon needs more input and logs from server owners. However, have you thought about how we help them by NOT going vanilla? Many players love HWS because it has more guns and because these damage buffs are here, I say we embrace our uniqueness and help Eleon by making suggestions. Instead of reverting to four SV guns when HWS likes six, make a post on the Eleon forums and see if EVERY player is willing for this new change. Maybe these are changes Eleon should be adding - not HWS subtracting.
Thank you for your time,
WillEatsPie
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There is no difference between 4 guns that deal 150 damage and 6 guns that deal 100 damage each. Other than perfomance, which is a determining factor in pvp for me and many other players.
Politary,
Guns are just the example I chose. HWS has dozens of changes, from buffed shields to an online marketplace. Let’s lead Empyrion in innovation, not change our ways to follow their path.
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There is no advantage to have increased gun limits other than a lag increase. No matter how it’s put, calculating 4 shots is easier than 6. I’l pass on this “innovation”.
I think you’re overgeneralizing. There are plenty of benefits, one being symmetry and sectors of fire.
I, personally, would also like to see the +2 BA artillery come back and also +1 HV artillery. Those are all large damage dealers and already the prime targets for attackers. Having 2 artillery turrets on HVs led to some really cool designs and also losing one of those “scary” turrets wasnt as much of an impact to the overall damage.
As far as the garage ships… I disagree strongly with giving them the base limits.
While we’re at it, Eleon didn’t intend for SVs to have CV thrusters. Best keep them SV only. And aren’t you breaking the game by giving them armor they shouldn’t have? Plus what’s the deal with these tiny medical devices and stuff? It’s breaking my immersion…
How ridiculous does that sound? My opinion has always been that the garage should be special. For the past two seasons we’ve seen it go the opposite way, stunting creativity and significantly reducing the “wow” factor the garage used to have.
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Having 2 artillery turrets on HVs led to some really cool designs
Adding stuff because it’s “cool” was a reason why shields were added with all of the headache server owners had to experience while balancing them in pvp environment. A lot of cool stuff doesn’t work well with gameplay and perfomance.
and also losing one of those “scary” turrets wasnt as much of an impact to the overall damage.
Same could be achieved with artillery turret having twice the hp. And it won’t break viability of blueprints made for workshop. A simple increase of damage/hp will balance combat just as well as adding more guns, minus lag increase.
There are plenty of benefits, one being symmetry and sectors of fire.
Those are benefits for a vessel/base type as a structure, not to server as a whole.
I think many players love shields, it made it difficult on server owners but many players adapted. I know @DoktorSchmerz didn’t like them, and I think @Snowman didn’t like them. However, dozens of other players do, including most of the player bases. I would argue server owners may even like them now because they have the ability to use them to buff or nerf bases - ans ships - easily. Actually, Rex nerfed SV’s in this way as S10.5 began so that we would have less of a problem with micros.
I understand that, but as much as we love PvP everyone has to PvE, and many players only PvE. It should be optomized for both, but Eleon needs to focus on PvE elements the most. What looks the coolest, what will gather more players? They shouldn’t ruin the game mechanics or make the entire game lag because of it, but if seventy percent of players (I pulled that number out of thin air) like something, then it should be a focus to get it implemented. If it causes lag Eleon should look at a way to reduce the lag, possibly even reducing lag for other things in the process.
But this does help the server as a whole does it not? If it keeps the players active then it helps the server, one change may not help keep the entire server active. However, a dozen changes like this will. These changes do affect the server in a good way, unless you only care about the stability of the server and not about the enjoyment of the players. That goes back to how we should focus on what the players want and trying to streamline the new object(s) though.
Sure, it could be achieved with giving it twice the HP, but two artillery turrets will still last longer than one and very few good designs for POI’s and PvP are good straight from the workshop, adding one artillery turret doesn’t take much time and it really helps a lot in making the ship look more symmetrical.
Artillery guns have a very slow rate of fire, and the damage on them usually just deletes blocks that it hits, taking all of their hitpoints. In my opinion, that should cause less lag than say a rocket turret which holds 15 rounds and usually leaves blocks with odd amounts of hitpoints - say 213 instead of 250 for six blocks. Then, those six blocks stay with odd hitpoints for a while, as different rockets and plasma charges hit other parts of the ship. Hence over-classing is so easy, even an HV at class 1.41 overclasses occasionally. I had an HV overclass from 1.37 all the way to 1.56 the other day trying to defend a base, I was forced to suicide it into ABNs dropbase to avoid getting it siezed by HWS at my home base.
Sincerely, WillEatsPie
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I think many players love shields, it made it difficult on server owners but many players adapted. I know @DoktorSchmerz didn’t like them, and I think @Snowman didn’t like them. However, dozens of other players do, including most of the player bases. I would argue server owners may even like them now because they have the ability to use them to buff or nerf bases easily.
I think you didn’t see my point, which was “add something because it’s needed, not because it’s cool”.
I understand that, but as much as we love PvP everyone has to PvE, and many players only PvE. It should be optomized for both, but Eleon needs to focus on PvE elements the most. What looks the coolest, what will gather more players? They shouldn’t ruin the game mechanics or make the entire game lag because of it, but if seventy percent of players (I pulled that number out of thin air) like something, then it should be a focus to get it implemented. If it causes lag Eleon should look at a way to reduce the lag, possibly even reducing lag for other things in the process.
They will fix it. One day. But we are playing the game now, and experiencing extremely bad perfomance. Once the game will work flawlessly with “vanilla” settings, then increased limits can be implemented.
Those are benefits for a vessel/base type as a structure, not to server as a whole.
I didn’t type “Those are benefits for players who build a vessel/base type, not to server as a whole” for a reason. 2 Artillery turrets instead of 1 is just a buff to HV as a vessel type. If you feel like HV with 1 Artillery turret is underpowered compared to other structures, there are many ways to buff it without hurting perfomance.
I don’t see how buffing, for example, HVs will bring more attention to server. I do see how good perfomance in pvp battles will, though.
Sure, it could be achieved with giving it twice the HP, but two artillery turrets will still last longer than one and very few good designs for POI’s and PvP are good straight from the workshop, adding one artillery turret doesn’t take much time and it really helps a lot in making the ship look more symmetrical.
Again, if you think HV as a class is underpowered, there is always a way to buff it without hurting perfomance, ie. make said Artillery turret have 3x the hp.
Workshop has all types of builds. Including dedicated pvp ships where every block is placed with a thought to make ship perfom the best it can and “just add one turret” will be a huge unnesessary problem for people who use those ships.
I don’t want to make a ten page forum response until I know what you mean here. What? Well, Empyrion wasn’t designed for PvP so it really isn’t necessary. Let’s go ahead and not add or work on anything PvP related, because we don’t need it. In fact, it’s taking away from PvE so lets go swap all those playfields back to PvE. I have about a million more examples, but I don’t think that’s what you intended. What did you mean? What do you mean by “needed?”
WillEatsPie
I don’t want to make a ten page forum response until I know what you mean here. What? Well, Empyrion wasn’t designed for PvP so it really isn’t necessary. Let’s go ahead and not add or work on anything PvP related, because we don’t need it. In fact, it’s taking away from PvE so lets go swap all those playfields back to PvE. I have about a million more examples, but I don’t think that’s what you intended. What did you mean? What do you mean by “needed?”
The game officially has “PVE” and “PVP” playfields, therefore it was designed for PVP as well. Enough said.
It’s a shame, but raising my arguments to absurd level, while showing a complete misunderstanding of topic won’t make your arguments valid. Neither will “ten page forum response”.
Thank you for clearing this up.
Forums where built for people to share opinions and come to conclusions, albeit my response wasn’t ten pages, ten pages is still an acceptable length for a post. Please keep it civil, thanks.
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Forums where built for people to share opinions and come to conclusions, albeit my response wasn’t ten pages, ten pages is still an acceptable length for a post. Please keep it civil, thanks.
Again, you completely missed my point. I didn’t say that a “ten page forum response” is not acceptable. I said that the “ten page forum response” does not make an initially erroneous assumption true. Like any other forum post.
Seems you need to make less vague points! Use proof, evidence, the stuff the United States is built on!
Seems you need to make less vague points! Use proof, evidence, the stuff the United States is built on!
2 turrets produce less lag than one turret does. It’s a common sense and was proven by Eleon, hence limit changes. My points are simple to understand, it’s not my problem that you are not able to do it.
No, no I don’t think thats all true. Do two gatling guns cause more lag than two pulse lazers? No, no they most definitely do not. Would one artillery turret that has a slower fire rate and a one bullet magazine cause less lag than a rocket, plasma, or pulse lazer turret that have much larger magazines and fire much faster? Seems like artillery turrets would cause much less lag to me.
Politary, if something I am saying is upsetting you please let me know, but a forum isn’t the place to have an argument. This is a place for civil discussions, and I would like you to respect my opinion. I would appreciate if you didn’t abuse the forum as a place to piss off members of the community. Thank You.
No, no I don’t think thats all true. Do two gatling guns cause more lag than two pulse lazers? No, no they most definitely do not. Would one artillery turret that has a slower fire rate and a one bullet magazine cause less lag than a rocket, plasma, or pulse lazer turret that have much larger magazines and fire much faster? Seems like artillery turrets would cause much less lag to me.
One artillery turret makes less lag than two artillery turrets. I didn’t compare turrets to each other.
I don’t want to make a ten page forum response until I know what you mean here. What? Well, Empyrion wasn’t designed for PvP so it really isn’t necessary. Let’s go ahead and not add or work on anything PvP related, because we don’t need it. In fact, it’s taking away from PvE so lets go swap all those playfields back to PvE. I have about a million more examples, but I don’t think that’s what you intended. What did you mean? What do you mean by “needed?”
WillEatsPie
So you started making sarcastic sentences in response to a well thought argument and now you accuse me of “pissing off” members? Please, read what you type before sending it on public forums.
I think we are done here. If it helps, none of those comments were sarcastic, I wasn’t sure what you meant because you said “add something because it’s needed, not because it’s cool” and if that was Eleons motto for the entire game it wouldn’t make any sense and we probably wouldn’t even have guns. What do you need to survive? food, water, and shelter. What do you need for an intergalactic space game? A way to warp and multiple systems.