HWS Support Discussion

HWS General Discussion
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After the big debate in the official Empyrion Discord today, I realised that people here are overly defensive about the microtransactions/donations here, but in the wrong way. Lets look at the definition of “Pay2Win” from wikipedia:

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or [downloadable content] may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free who, for example, would otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. Such games are called “pay-to-win” or “p2w” by critics.

So essentially, by providing a means to progress with real money, HWS arguably fulfills this definition. You could certainly debate over the meaning of ‘significant’. But certainly for a new player, it is; just not a veteran, as I’ll discuss later.

Lots of people mistake this criticism as critics are saying donators can literally “win pvp battles” or “dominate the server” if they pay enough, which we all know isn’t true.

Where these critics do seem to be mistaken though, is the impact in game of these payments. After being initially very wary of the system, I gave this server a go and discovered that in game actions will soon outdistance the majority of donation rewards. As you progress further on the server, the less of an impact the microtransactions have. I went from being heavily skeptical to quite impressed with how the system can help new players catch up, while not unbalancing the “late game” too much.

I figured out today that Fasgort makes about 5 Million credits in interest a day, which is the same as buying an alien core for 9 euros and selling it successfully every day. In game actions are much more significant by design.

When you then throw in on top of this that HWS has:

  • The most powerful system and highest player count of any Empyrion Server
  • The most stable servers (I have literally never been unable to connect, which when compared to AAA MMOs going down for 3 hours maintenance a week is pretty impressive)
  • The most active and hardworking administrators

The 'ew" factor of the microtransctions disappears, because the benefits are far outweighing the advantages.

So to conclude, what I’m saying here is…

To everyone arguing over discord and steam forums: Don’t worry about defending the server to critics over it’s weaknesses or what the definition of P2W is, but focus instead on the strengths and benefits it has. Squash the myths of how impactful paid items are in game as they are frequently over-exaggerated.

To Rexxus: Don’t worry about trying to satisfy your critics with systems like the ingots. The new patreon and adding convenience/prestige features are a great way to go. Work on stuff you find fun and make the server even better.

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The majority of the benefits you can pay for, can be unlocked easily enough through in-game play. When people say a game is “pay 2 win”, the stigma is that you have to pay in order to get that benefit in a feasible amount of time.

HWS does not meet that stigma. So while I appreciate you clarifying what you mean by saying HWS is P2W and that’s “okay”, HWS is not a P2W server. And you should not be using that term whenever speaking about HWS as it will lead to misunderstandings to people that have not read your huge thread.

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I agree with this entirely. While @Duckroll makes a very valid argument, it can easily be misconstrued into a negative based on the title alone.

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I’d have never started playing if the game was P2W, your headline is not the best choice Duck as it will be an EYECATCHER for anyone thinking about joining the server.

P2W is always about longterm, it’s NEVER about fresh players.

You can buy OCD5 with 19$ …
Even as a total noob you can make those millions within 3-4 weeks on your own.
You brought up the aliencore example, it’s good it’s not cheap to buy because that way people invest their time.
Making 5 million Credits is not that hard for a newbie and it’s very simple for a veteran or the two zerg alliances.

The resource packages are the same. You can pay 5$ or you can go mine for an hour.
Why should anyone invest 5$ if he can do the same easily ingame, even as a beginner.

Then we have an NPC trader which makes it even more easy with a bit of RP, those you get for free every day.

So I consider the donation features we have not as pay2win.

To keep a game non pay 2 win this is important:
Donation should always be for lazy people, they should make your life easier but not give you a real benefit.

  • Alien cores are a good example

I also suggested offering a way to trade global (outside PVP) with the new donation features. If someone pays every month, give him a lazy bonus by not having to fly to the HQ planet for each sale or buy.

The game is very far from P2W and as long as it stays like that it has a bright future.
I think donations need to have more impact than now (in terms of lazyness), it’s not enough right now to convince people doing it.
But it’s on a good path.

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Hey guys - I edited the title as I agree it would be misleading if someone skimmed over it.

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I disagree with the “definition” you provided from wikipedia.

Here is another “definition” of pay to win that I believe to be more accurate:
players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those who don’t. Critics of such games call them “pay-to-win”.

A good example of this, almost every single game on your cell phone. To me, that is what pay to win is. However, there is no real definition of pay to win so all this is subject to opinions.

HWS does not provide any advantage that you cant get in a short period of time. If you go to GG and spend a couple of hours in the red zone, you can get EB 3 in almost no time. You can get your OCD upgraded in almost no time. You can get an alien core in no time.

Now that being said, HWS started HWS Ingots that you can earn in game (fairly easy might I add). These HWS Ingots can be used to purchase the same upgrades that people pay money for. While other games allow similar currency like HWS Ingots, they are extremely hard and rare to earn because they want your money. HWS Ingots are Rep points. The more you play, the faster you get rep, the more HWS Ingots you earn.

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Duckroll, i thought i had already dismantled that argument but i’ll give it a better deal this time. The key word is critic. A critic is just someone who holds an opinion of something and expresses it. And this is what Wikipedia is telling you, and thats it. “Such games are called “pay-to-win” or “p2w” by critics.” Key word “critics”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

And what definition are the critics referring to?

Here: In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free who, for example, would otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.

So the key question here is what exactly is a significant advantage? This word “significant advantage” provides a vague critic and largely depends on the individual giving the critics, so here were going to do away with this shaky, vague, and weak-founded definition that is clearly just a critic and a weak attempt at a definition at best.

I think the Urban Dictionary has a better defined explanation for pay to win.

The Definition according to the Urban Dictionary: Games that let you buy better gear or [allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

Which is why HWS cannot be included in pay to win. First off, their is no gear that you can buy in HWS with real money that is better then gear that is available to all players inside the game. First, because the game is not based on better gear but better ship or base building skills. Something that money can’t buy which is a Fact. I hope this finally puts the confusion to rest. peace

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Interesting discussion — it appears all are mostly on the same page. Its the term p2w creating the angst.

It’s meaning is gray, and its interpretation is according to each listener/reader.

What does appear consistent is all consider it to have a negative connotation. And this is the only reason why it continues to reappear by those who desire to harm hws. Similar to how the word ‘racist’ is cast about in the usa.

In this regard, as a negative — it has no place in the same sentence describing hws.

Servers cost money, time is money, intelligence has value. There are no free rides, money has to come from somewhere.

My impression is Rex is doing all he can to encourage a revenue stream necessary to support his passion and efforts creating a world leading game server — in the most positive way he can imagine at this time.

Other than being independently wealthy, or a sponsor who is ---- how else is hws to continue to exist and thrive?

Those who use this term to describe hws — should always be asked how they would do it, and to prove their idea would work.

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In short words, can’t be made more simple:
Anyone who says HWS is pay to win does not understand what he is talking about.

It’s either a toxic person, a troll or a noob

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I expect a lot more to come in form of donation feature, right now donations are close to useless in what they yield. Except if you are completely new to the game and try to skip the first weeks building up.

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Y cant ppl jus donate to help rexx keep the server up y do we need something for it, its a donation from the heart y ppl always want something in return