Let's discuss the toxicity rule

Hello HWS folks.

I’ll start out with this: Toxicity is bad, duh. I recently started playing HWS after a 4-ish month hiatus, mostly because my previous faction (which I will not identify here, that is not the point, just making sure folks know I have not been around for a while) imploded, but secondarily because I wasn’t allowed to talk in chat because I primarily liked to PvP, and a big part of PvP is baiting your opponent into making a mistake, and at the time, that was not an option, because almost any PvP chat was considered toxic.

I was elated to see that Eleon implemented a mute function that that works between reboots, dp I thought that wouldn’t be an issue anymore, so here I am playing, baiting and shooting. Anyone who says I am a master baiter, I will mute you rather than report you, because that’s all I need now if I’m offended.

Toxicity is also very subjective - something that is extremely offensive to you in a way that effects your gameplay may be just another day in chat to me, especially when we’re playing a game in which international boundaries are joined, that makes it even more subjective.

I’ll use my own post as an example in which my experience was impacted in a negative way:

In this case, my experience was ruined by not the toxicity that was present from my point of view, but that everything was viewed as being toxic if it involved some sort of conflict in chat. Well, as it so happens, we have PvP on this server, which is conflict, so things need to be adjusted I think.

Now, I can mute people I don’t like hearing from, if I don’t want to participate in the PvP banter or even hear it - it is GONE, easy!

If I’m a PvP person though, and I want to trash talk, I’m AGAIN in the same position I was in the last time I played due to the rules - I am not allowed to talk.

I suggest that instead of effectively muting PvP players with vague and subjective rules, you remove them, because Eleon has given us a great tool that allows us to remove all of that if we choose to, without having to write a huge forum post such as this.

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I believe this rule was implemented in part because the in game MUTE function was not permanent… That issue has since been rectified. Press B and click the speaker icon next to whoever you don’t want to see in chat - done! Simple fix for a rule that should not have been implemented in the first place, in my opinion. The day I get offended by being called an NPC is the day I leave the internet.

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throughout history one if the largest things that will make a society crumble is censorship. maybe its just the American in me but i feel this “rule” should vanish. communication is one of the most difficult things to monitor and administrate. time better spent on looking into actual gameplay issues. with such a mixture of players from all around the planet, all having different cultures, just about any phrase can be deemed as insulting. it is nearly impossible to understand the drive behind words spoken. we all have been on the sending and receiving end of shots fired. how u act on that is your choice. i feel if someone has issue with what is said, it is their issue. they need to understand what was said cannot be changed. only what u do next is what matters. words are very powerful and have have much different associations to each of us. try to remember this is just a game. not a career. not a way if life. a place to go and unplug from the horrors of the real world we live in and the daily nonsense is brings. i say we all just drop all the toxic history and move on. join in, fire some shots, have laughs, enjoy. that’s all that really matters.

If you don’t understand why calling a human literally “not human” is offensive then maybe you’re the problem?
I will admit tho that’s rather tame on the totem pole of toxicity and if that’s the only thing that was said then idk if punishment is the right answer. But at the same time if literally nobody was talking to you and you just randomly call an entire group of people an NPC, then that is referred to as harassment. It’s not like you lost in a pvp match and were angry and called somebody out. You were literally trying to start a fight with others and stir shit up.

But I also agree with this here. The rule was put in place because of the issues with the mute feature. Not only was it not carrying over after logins but before that it didn’t even exist. And when they did implement it it never worked.

As of this moment, I have the entirety of ABN and OP4 muted save for like maybe one person on each team who I think in general is pretty chill and enjoyable to interact with, and I can tell you that I don’t have issues with toxicity in game anymore as a result.

Now the forums are an entirely different story. Toxicity on the forums is a hell of a lot worse than it is in game and it’s really irritating to see the admins completely ignore what’s being said here while clamping down on in game conversations that are incredibly tame.
I don’t even feel comfortable posting on the forums save for rare cases like now because of that toxicity. The decisions our admins are making both in policy and with in game features is pushing me away from this server more and more. I came back this season looking forward to seeing some changes that could have addressed the pvp meta of last season only to find much worse changes ruining any fun I was going to have.
At this point, why even have a pvp server? If you’re so concerned about toxicity, just make HWS entirely PvE and then boom problem solved. We’ll have pvp elsewhere. It seems like the admins are only catering to pve players anyways. The pvp changes are flippin horrible every season and it doesn’t seem like the pvp players are being heard or their opinions considered.

This is a place to unplug from the horrors of the real world as you said, but there are people who bring that BS back into the game and you’re faulting the person who’s having to deal with this BS both in game and out of game for the actions of what other people are doing? Do you even realize what you’re saying or do you just type a bunch of nonsense to try and look cool?

If we’re here to change rules then here’s my input on that:
Stop using blanket terms to cover an entire vague concept that is entirely subjective to the eye of the beholder. As was said in another forum post, American women have issue with the big C word. But it’s basically every other word to an Aussie. It changes based on who you’re talking to. Two people can be having a conversation with each other and neither be offended yet an admin can step in and say holy crap that’s toxic ok I’m banning both of you, and that’s not ok.
You can evaluate what’s being said based on:
Is it Harassment, which if you’re somehow unaware of what that is you can get a start on your research with it’s wiki page. I would encourage you to do more research outside of wikipedia but the wiki is at least a good place to start: Harassment - Wikipedia

Is the intent to cause problems, or stir shit up?
Is it demeaning? Are people using the political/religious beliefs to talk down to others? (falls under harassment but I thought it’s worth mentioning regardless)

If somebody says “your ship is built poorly” or “you’re not a good pilot” and use those as reasons as to why a battle was lost.
I can not stress this enough…
That.
Is.
NOT.
Toxic, demeaning, harassment, etc.
That is simply the nature of pvp.

furthermore, the losing side can take that as a hint as to what they can improve on, although admittedly when people get heated they probably won’t see it that way and will rather get salty about it instead. But regardless, at this point I feel like the admins just don’t want us talking at all. >:(

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1. There’s no first amendment here…
Let’s remember that this is a European server, Rexxus tries to make it feel as international as he can be ultimately the bones of this thing will be European, even on NA simply as it derives from EU ownership. What I mean is that there’s no first amendment on here that says people can say and do what they want, I’m not trying to bait or bash anyone or the US constitution (which was a work of political genius and is still studied today, albeit is starting to look somewhat archaic, but hey us Brits right now really wish we had some kind of constitution so I can’t really comment!) but I see a lot of it reflected in how people are kind of reacing to this rule, instead pointing to fears of ‘censorship’ and such.

I love my NA brothers…But this HAS to stop!

The only reason I’m bringing this up is because this toxicity thing is uniquely an NA problem, and Rex can back me up here. For every 1 EU case of ‘toxicity’ there seems to be 5 NA cases, and before you say ‘NA is more active’ that may be true but it doesn’t make up for the change in proportion. This is an NA problem, I hope you guys can find a solution that works for everyone, but remember it will apply to both servers, hence my involvement.

Hatespeech is Hatespeech, Toxicity is Toxicity, it’s easy to identify with some self-awareness.
In Europe we have laws against hatespeech which is another form of toxicity and I think David has made it clear that he and Rex will have the final say over what is/isn’t allowed. I know that this ambiguity may make some people uncomfortable but that’s how ALL laws work, nobody can act with certainty that they’re on the ‘right’ side of the law, there’s always a variable, however small that states the opposite is true. I imagine we’ve ALL played games where admins decide and lay down the law, we’re especially lucky to have cool-headed admins that aren’t ban happy, let’s appreciate that instead of becoming paranoid!

There’s an irony to those saying they aren’t ‘easily offended’ whilst hand-wringing over Admins deciding outcomes.
We’re grown adults (most of us anyway) and should be able to resolve things without requiring ANY kind of arbitration, the fact that it has got this far is very sad, especially from the perspective of a former teacher myself, if my angsty teenage students can work through this then why not grown adults, what excuses do us lot have? Other than ignorance or insensitivty?

Treat people with respect, the minute they stop engaging in the back and forth banter is the time to stop. Moreover if they ask you to stop in private or in public you need to respect that. Furthermore, if you’re dissing someone and they’re not even online then shame on you, that’s not banter but backtalk and it’s really lame.

What’s with the ‘I’m impossible to offend’ stuff?
Moreover it’s especially sad with others trying to ‘out-man’ eachother over how hardcore they are and how impossible it is to be offended by being called an NPC, people are different, some will get more easily offended and some less so, that doesn’t make the more easily offended people any less valuable than the others. It’s a shame we’re having to masculinity-signal (instead of virtue signal, which tbh would be preferable!).

Finally, Rex is incredibly careful when punishing people.
Those worrying about over-reach needn’t, Rexxus is extremely careful regarding bans and other forms of punishment. As David has already shown, verbal warnings will be given out providing players with a chance to change their ways, that’s their responsibility, if they fail to improve then further action will be taken. Which is fair enough.

Overall I think this toxicity rule is a step in the right direction and will aid player retention in the long term whilst teaching some of our less civilized members some much needed manners. (No digs at any one person here as I don’t actually know who’se doing what).

I really hope it doesn’t come off like an attack or anti-NA post as it’s not. You folks make up HWS, I love all of ya in my cold heart, and I believe that you folks can help find a solution once we restructure the conversation.

And If I have offended anyone, Then I unconditionally apologise, it’s not my intention, if you wish to discuss how this post offended you so I can learn for the future then please feel free to post here or PM me.

Best regards
Wise.

EDIT: Also in regards to Kittiez ‘That’s the nature of PVP’ suggestion I recommend otherwise. We PVPers have a moral obligation in my opinion to help change the ‘nature of PVP’ to be more accomodating. And if morality isn’t going to win people over (at least, my own subjective morals) then necessity should: This game’s playerbase will shrink over time, be it sooner or later. Therefore for those hardcore fans of PVP amongst us we should do ALL we can to keep a varied and healthy PVP community going for as long as possible.

On EU this translated to us giving ships/resources to our fallen enemies (sometimes more than they lost) when they were from unknown factions to prevent them from feeling ‘wiped’ and rage-quitting. It also meant not crap talking them when they’re ships burst into flames but instead giving them constructive advice (instead of constructive criticism which to the more easily offended or recently flattened might not be seen as very…constructive). I imagine this is already mirrored on NA but perhaps it should be done more-so, especially in the language used during PVP.

Edit 2: If someone is being toxic and has failed to heed guidance then put them on a one week ‘probation’, one step out of line in terms of toxicity during this warning period and BAM a one week ban. It’s sure as hell stop this nonsense in its tracks. But it’s admin intensive and this whole thing should be getting resolved by people talking to one-another in a more respectful manner.

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Agreed.

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What? Why would you mute me??

I kinda liked our conversations. And you have a cat.

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I actually think you’re one of the ones not muted ironically, despite your title of troll on the forums :stuck_out_tongue:

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If I didn’t troll then I wouldn’t like you.

: )

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to be clear, this was in no way meant to smear the bill of rights in anyone’s face. i completely understand the american constitution carries zero weight in HWS. the many issues with our extensively flawed american government is a radioactive topic for another post :wink: i am merely explaining where my position is coming from. tell just about any american citizen they are not allowed to say something and it will usually be met with quite a bit of resistance. i would like to point out that a lot of time has been spent on policing what is said. time that could be redirected to resolving server stability issues, new features, and more (side note: thank you very much @RexXxuS for your tiresome efforts in getting our planet ready. it is beautiful! we all appreciate your sacrifice.) i am in no way saying i would like to see more negativity in game or on forums. that is the last thing that is needed for anyone involved. this is a big ask, but i call out to all factions and say lets all try to move past our prior discretions and move forward to enjoying the game. i know those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it, but those who dwell on it are constantly reliving it :frowning: we all have the tools to block/ignore what we do not like to see.

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we don’t want to know how good you tug. lost in translation ftw. made me chuckle.

All this calling for ‘proof’ all the time, the ease at which ppl get offended being well documented these days. i’d give pestboy a 3/10 on the tox levels…but so long as it isn’t sexist, racist, homophobic…anything goes. Insult away, call people liars, get called a liar back, stop being so damn sensitive. We need 3 more pestboys on the server imho.

sincerely, playing online since 98’ and ‘seen it all’ as patrick stewart would say.

To quote Stephen Fry

“It’s now very common to hear people say, ‘I’m rather offended by that.’ As if that gives them certain rights. It’s actually nothing more… than a whine. ‘I find that offensive.’ It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. ‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so fucking what."

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I am offended by your post.