Any hope for improving CV vs CV combat in PVP?

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(Xpost from official forum)

After another round of testing tonight and the recent discussion on Core Targeting, Its starting to feel like your stuck in an abusive relationship with no hope of it getting better. So hear is my plea, Is it me?, what am i doing wrong?

I love this game but things just seem to be getting worse in PVP. Tonight I ran two test on the HWS Nova server, first test was two CV’s targeting turrets only and the second was targeting only the core. But the only result I could come up with is the lag and FPS is horrible.

Just a couple of notes before i get in to the testing

  • My System Specs
  • Intel(R) Core™ i7-4710HQ CPU @ 2.50GHz
  • Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 860M
  • Video Card #2: Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600
  • RAM: 8.0 GB
  • SSD: Samsung 850 Pro 256gb
  • Operating System: Microsoft Windows 10 (build 14393), 64-bit

Internet Speed

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In game Video Settings

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Now that is out of the way here is the first test.

  • Both CVs are class 4
  • Both are set to target guns and turrets only
  • Current sever version Alpha 5.3.1 build 859
  • Ping to server 140ms-150ms

Highlights

  • Lots of studdering and frequent pauses
  • Cockpit lag shot at 3:30
  • Cockpit lag shot at 10:30
  • While turrets are firing constant FPS 5-20

Second Test went as about well as the first.

  • Same two CVs as used in the first test
  • Turrets are set to Core targeting only

Highlights

  • Crash to Desktop at 5:25
  • Cockpit death at 17:07 (probably from clipping though enemy ship)

With the lag and constant freezing its hard to conduct any type of testing. It seems every fight ends up with a lag shot or a hard crash, no in between. Im not looking for any type of balancing in PVP but just a smooth experience. I understand the Devs are wanting to keep adding new features and make the game better. But with PvP fights performing this bad, there is no reason to keep playing.

Is there any hope in the near future to see any improvements in PVP combat or is it time to put the game on the shelf tell beta?

Anyway thanks for listening to my rant

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Hello Tomcat, i feel you man :slight_smile:

i have done no testing on nova, but PVP on EU became almost unplayable. I dont know exactly whats causing it, maybe the new patches scewed something up, maybe the fact that there are hunderets of structures in each playfield, or maybe the recent developments that the fights always escalate and there are 10-15 CVs fighting because everyone calls allies for help … i dont know.
but its barely any fun at the moment. you enter a battle and your game freezes, enemy ships take MINUTES to render, you dont see shots hitting your ship, but after warping out your ships looks like swiss cheese … or you get killed by lagshots. not to mention the general low fps.
i really tried to keep playing but there is just a certain amout of frustration i can take, and i think its reached.

it could be so great, but sadly it isnt at the moment.
i think its time for a break and to wait for some fixes… lets hope the devs listen.

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best question of the week!

All optical improvements are nothing compared to stability in the PVP.

Is it due to the existing hardware or has Empyrion such a bad network code / engine (voxel)? Is the hope that the future technically improves?

Is the existing engine designed for massively multiplayer at all?
Does Eleon have the expertise, the technical knowledge and the resources to get the game mid-term lag free?

Compared to dual universe (pre alpha), Empyrion is very poor in stability.

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Hey guys,

thank you @tomcat as always for the detailed tests! And yes, I know how you all feel.

Let me explain some things and take away the hate to Eleon a bit:
##First of all: you have to blaim only one thing and that is this survey!

More than 50% Multiplayer but ~19% PvP? GG
Now we can go more in depth and say: hey, why? Maybe because PvP is laggy, buggy, exploitable so even some veterans voted PvE? Who knows, maybe. But if even these people were smart they would have voted PvP to make a sign and say “Yes, PvP! Invest more time in PvP! Make it better! Make it less laggy, buggy, etc.”

So hands down: this is for now the fate of PvP - because of these people voted for PvE. Why? Because 6.0 will be going more in that direction because the last patches were mainly focussed on MP. I guess HWS is almost the only server who pushes Story and PvP so much…

Anyways the hope is not over yet at all! Why?

Because we want that you enjoy the game on HWS nevertheless! Jascha improved the playfield feature in the tool to a new level and furthermore for 6.0. We will listen to you and just combine the awesome content coming with 6.0 but still try to provide the best PvP as possible. How (teaser)?

  1. SV only playfields - your sold pimped version included
  2. Class limits enforced! Class 4 (maybe max 5) max. No Class 10 randomly crashing you to desktop
  3. Bases on PvP will be meaningful again (you can have 1 main base beyond Class 4-5)
  4. Dedicated Battle arenas only for PvP with cool mechanism
  5. Finally control about everything - faction / private separately. SVs / HVs amount limits. No 200 HVs on one planet anymore
  6. The universe is dedicated to help for performance and great balance of PvE and PvP
  7. Even if all this fails: PvE (Aliens) will be pushed to a new level

That is what waits for you - that is on what we are working all the day / 24/7 for you - why? Because we can ® Because we try to fill the gaps Eleon just can’t fill because they are a such a small dev team what is already awesome what they created in that time with such small resources - don’t forget this.

Last but not least: we discussed a lot about PvP with Eleon and it will be pushed after 6.0. Not only lot cool stuff is coming but also optimizations regarding laggs.

So what is the deal? Just time. Yeah now it is lame but for me it is better to have very good signs for the future rather than just playing an alpha game which doesn’t give me insights of progression at all like other games.

Final thing what is important: only because your rant, only because you are angry, only because you rage quit we know what is needed and only then we can improve and go forward. So keep going :wink:

Thanks!

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IMHO: Present game balance and perfomans makes game unplayable. Interesting PVP actions is finished after 3.0. But after 5.1 it is a madness,. There other games we have. Emperion go directly to a RIP if devs not change they course.

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I’m hanging in there. Like any good relationship you take the bad and the good in hopes the good outweigh the bad. The game hasn’t gotten to a point I’ve lost hope in the future and HWS is the best of them all so I’ll be sticking with the server and doing my part to help see this game to Final release. Sure if things go bad bad we all have to make our choices, but this spouse remains loyal.

THe HWS Admin team is the sole reason this is successful, and the game state doesn’t make that go away. :). Thanks for all you do guys!

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You forgot to link the topic from the official forums:

As I said there I’ve mostly shelved the game. I might log in a lil to stash my autominer stuff in my OCD or give it away to my group but that’s about it. This isn’t just a multiplayer or PVP issue either. These lag shots and non-functioning armor also occur even in single player. If they don’t fix it and start releasing major PVE content (Alien CVs, SVs, etc) it won’t just be us frustrated by it but also all the single players. Most people in single player just don’t realize what is happening when they lose internal components and shrug it off since combat in PVE is so easy.

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Thank you @RexXxuS for your reply, not what I wanted hear but something I need to hear. It does explain a lot and gives me hope.

I just missed the Survey, the day i joined Empyrion is the day those results came out. Really glad to have you and your team on are side.

Looking forward to what you guys do in 6.0, thank you for all the info.

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No hope.

Rly, by dat survey - we need EXPLORATION ?! Who need that? less than 10 planet types. U want to watch them one by one to the end of world?.. Idk who votes there, but results looks so stupid. I think when Dual World or SE:MP comes out - Emp gonna die fast. I saw already 3 versions, and no pvp-fixes at all.

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Frankly much of this problem is our own doing.

The HWS community as a whole does not participate in the official forums. The core targeting poll hardly got any votes. 75 total iirc.

75 - just 75 people? Come on guys. We had that many on NA. If all of them voted maybe it would sway the developer opinion.

The community survey is really old - and while I do wish they did another I also feel that it’s almost too late. The game hit it’s PvP prime in mid 4.x in my opinion.

If a survery came out now, I’d have to chase people who quit the game to get them to fill it out…and they don’t care anymore. They’re off playing better games…and so am I.

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Yes this PVP would kill the complete Game!

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guuuys, i know its annoying right now, but dont give up yet.
i play this game since day one, and there have been good versions/patches/times for PVP and bad ones.

there will be enjoyable times again, im certain about that. we just need to be patient, and find something to play in the meantime.

and it has been said before, but it cant be said often enough:
HUGE thanks to the HWS team, you really made empyrion what it is for us pvpers. without you we would play another game, im sure about that!

love,
bersi:)

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[quote=“Mordgier, post:10, topic:4597”]The HWS community as a whole does not participate in the official forums. The core targeting poll hardly got any votes. 75 total iirc.
[/quote]

I do think HWS players should engage some on the official forums. I’ve been doing so for a while. Yet that poll was two bad choices. I think the only way PVP can remain interesting long term is if they move to mostly manual aim. As long as it’s auto aim turrets it’ll always be bad. Perhaps yaml choices or modding in the future will allow this even if it isn’t the default.

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ya you are right about participating … but im not quite sure about manual targeting yet. imagine manual targeting with 5 fps and freezes all the time … would be even worse :slight_smile:

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Well the idea is that we know the turrets are currently causing the biggest part of frame rate drops. If we even had something like a designator turret manned by another player, or the pilot, then all turrets hit THERE instead of seeking and calculating their own targets, it would allow for a good reason to have crewed ships, and cut the combat calculations required significantly.

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I would LOVE it if the CVs required a pilot and a gunner with the gunner being able to manually target ALL turrets.

Some of the most fun I’ve had was flying as a gunner in a Liberator in Planetside 2.

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Our Mord you’re a veteran on the planet side 2, but tell me you play in that army? I play Terran (only terran), no game of lib or even mosquito, lag and latency does not allow me to do this, but I play better tank.

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what i heard is that its not the turrets per se, its the damage calculation coming from the shots fired. hummel said that not so long ago somewhere.

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From what I have worked with in unity, and what I have seen in Empyrion, The turret calculations appear to take into account the following:
Target: this is where the turret decides to try and shoot at. It is a finite and small point in space, and if it is moving at a constant single axis rate, it appears to be able to hit fairly reliably. This means that is has to know:
Target velocity: there are two parts here, direction and speed. Acceleration does not appear to ever be reliably accounted for that I have seen, so it uses momentary values at time of shooting. It then extrapolates where the target will be based on the velocity and location, as well as:
Projectile speed: This is an easy one, and is fixed for each projectile type.
To a lesser accurate extent, it then also takes into account your motion when firing. You can see this going awry when you change course, or fire on a fixed target while moving. The shells do not hit spot on their target.

Then its a communications race. The projectile exists both on client and server, and each calculates these bits, and where it should impact. It then renders this projectile (for things other than cannon or mini) along its flightpath, and checks for collisions with rendered objects such as terrain or ships. It then creates a point of impact client side, and calculates damage and potential loss of blocks, etc, and relays info between client and server. What happens here I cant tell you without looking at their code, but it LOOKS like there is some sort of error check between the two, and this accounts for the relogging or warping showing more damage after a fight. It also is the root of the lag shot issue. Something about that collision check is not happening.

The thing is, the damage vs the turret thing is easy to prove or disprove. Have 10 cv’s manually fire cv lasers at a single one at once while moving around. Then have a comparable number of pulse laser turrets fire in same situation. Something similar to what was done already. The same damage calculations should be done in either situation, but I can tell you the chance of the same frame rate loss happening is slim to none.

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I wonder if an easy way for now to fix lag shot is If core != exposed it cannot receive damage, so any damage that leaks through gets ignored and since it only happens every few minutes the loss in dps from these will be negligible.