CV Block Limit

HWS General Discussion
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I wanted to start a discussion on the new block limits for CVs, namely 150 blocks for GG and Homeworld.

I have several problems with this. First, as a participant in the garage ship competition last season I feel like this makes all my efforts a waste because I designed my combat CV specifically to be compatible with the PVP hotspots like GG. Now it can’t be taken to GG, and it is way too small to be effective anywhere else.

I can understand the reasoning even if I don’t agree, my biggest problem is that there was no prior discussion with the garage designers to give us a chance to bring our ships into compliance. However, even if I was given that chance there is no way I could get it down to 150 blocks and still look anywhere near as cool, which as I understand is one of the defining features of a garage ship.

I would be interested to hear what others have to say about this.

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I also would like to have a fun chance to enjoy these ships for this season at least. I think there should be a compromise system for these ships on PvP playfields.

I feel for the players that put time and effort on making these vessels, then to see them useless on the intention of that current PvP meta.

I would love to see class 1 CVs on HW planets but keep 150 blocks on GG. I believe this will bring more PvP to the HW system that should be the hotspot of the server anyways.

If your worried about CV soakers, Is it possible to make only the garage ships able to enter those planets and anything else 150 block?

There has to be a balance somewhere for PvP.

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couldn’t have said it better…

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Honestly I couldn’t care how it is done really, just give me somewhere that my garage ship can be effective. Right now the only PVP areas it can go to have a class 5 limit so it is completely out classed. If I had known this was coming I would have made it a class 5 combat CV with HV turrets for extra kick.

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I’m glad you said it, I wasn’t going to say it first cuz it seems like nobody really takes me seriously anyways but i’m glad that I’m not alone in this. My ship was specifically designed for planetary combat. It’s pretty freakin worthless at this point. Even if I could bring it down to 150 blocks, the aesthetic is entirely lost which was what I spent most of my time working on.
As it stands now, there is NOWHERE for my ship to be flown and actually feel valuable. I didn’t enjoy the 150 block limit on GG a few seasons ago when we had it, and I don’t want it back now. And to make it worse it’s on every pvp planet, so you’re making CVs pretty freakin useless.
I never really understood the reasoning behind this anyways, it seems like it’s just a way to prevent a particular strategy from being used despite there being actual counters to that strategy. What’s worse is that these rules aren’t actually doing anything to address those strategies, but simply taking away any fun we might have with garage ships. You can STILL bring an over classed CV down on the planet to soak. Only way to stop that entirely would be to prevent CVs from entering the planet altogether, but that would hurt garage ships even more. Furthermore, I would imagine with the new weapons config that CV vs BA on planet wouldn’t last very long anyways.
Imo, a more elegant solution to this problem would be to have some of the base turrets do extra damage to CV blocks, but make it so that players have to choose which turret to use. For example, perhaps BA Flak turret would be strong against CV blocks, but weak to SV/HV blocks. That’s just one example, but there’s definitely better ways of doing this without preventing players from using ships they spent their hard earned gold on to get. The Titan might as well be an expensive paperweight. At least with that one you can bring it into space after you upclass it and add any missing weapons to it. The others aren’t so lucky.

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Thanks for the feedback.

The reason behind this change was Community feedback about consistency. Before there were so many different limits around, that some just could not keep up with it.
Since HWS is already too complex for some, I wanted to simplify it.

That the Garage Ship Contest was a bit unfortunate about limits and announcements was probably my fault — it was just too much for me to look out for and announce and work for.

Anyways, as some already recognized about resource distribution, the Homeworld System should be the way to go again about lot PvP action.

I would consider to remove the Block limits on all 5 Homeworld planets and only keep Class 1, ok?

CVs on planets is not my vision of Empyrion though. Once HV > SV docking is proper implemented there is no need for CVs on PvP planets anymore. There might be only few exceptions (Titan).

  1. If CVs could shoot with all their turrets on a planet, why there are HVs at all?
  2. I can’t balance BA vs CV properly. Too many variables are mixed, especially with the Alien Technology in the HWS Garage.
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thank you for the response, I think allowing them on HW would be perfect, as long as there is somewhere for it to be effectively used.

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Hey Rex,

Even though I no longer play I’d like to give you some feedback on this issue.

I think you are missing a problem here - base fights are very unbalanced in favor of defense - taking down properly designed and defended base is very hard. This is caused by HVs being pretty much useless against properly designed PVP bases because HV turrets won’t fire if base’s closest targetable block is hidden behind terrain (which will almost always be the case if it’s underground) and SVs are too fragile against bases. This can only be fixed if Eleon implements better targeting system.

Until then only CVs can be used to break stalemate and that’s why I’ve designed Titan CV, if CVs are removed from planetary PVP this is going to be even worse than it used to be in season 10.

1 CV per alliance limit answers this problem - to take down defended tripple base complex players would need 1 garage CV and some HVs/SVs for cover.

I think it’s very bad idea which can lead to balance problem - it wouldn’t be hard to design armor-HV which only purpose would be to be docked to SV and act as additional armor/shield.

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Shields on docked vessels are automagically disabled. Also will depend on if Eleon factors in the weight of docked HVs (or SV and HVs on CVs) to prevent 5000k block HVs to be easily moved by a SV with only 6 thrusters. I am more against CVs on planet than for. Based aren’t meant to be easily rolled. They are stationary fortifications meant to deter and/or repel an attacking enemy. Using alien technology on CVs with multiple shield damaging turrets just compounds the problem of PvP and the massive amount of turrets creating a lagfest for everyone (even those not in the playfield can and have been impacted).

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Shields from the shield generator yes (although that’s a recent change, wasn’t like that originally), but he’s not referring to that (I think), but rather creating a shield, or a barrier of armor using HV parts which are far more sturdy than sv parts are. That was actually the first thing I toyed with whenever I found out about HVs docking to SV. If there’s not some srs limitations put on what kind of hv can dock to an sv and how, then it’s going to create an entirely new meta where SV are armored up with hv blocks. If you’re not sure how that works then allow me to show you when that patch comes :wink:

Bases aren’t easily rolled by CVs. Especially when they’re being defended by active players and when they’re grouped together. Tbh, I wish CVs had MORE uses on planets, I really don’t understand why people hate CVs on planets so much.

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A lot of the CV hate comes back from the good ol’ days when I was just starting. Back then it was the factions H86, ZC, LoT and their respective allies doing planetary battles with CVs. The turrets were already disabled for on planet except for the crappy minigun/cannons, but the major thing we were able to use were the rocket launchers and pulse cannons. It was an extreme lagfest as we had 8-10 CVs in the air fighting over contested bases on Iceworld. It was a blast, a hell of a mess to clean up afterwards, but it also became unplayable for may of us because the sheer amount of blocks and triangles rendering in and out made it a slideshow often, and remember this was just one battle of many. After ZC just faded off, H86 morphed into Op4, and resumed the rebel alliance and into season 5, contesting a large amount of planets in the HW system (darkworld was the best tbh). Massive fights, massive lag, etc… It just kept getting worse as far as performance goes to have CVs on planets doing the fighting. During a fight on desertworld @mcprouty introduced a new idea using his CV called the fly swatter. Basically a simple small CV for what I think was a mobile turret platform, not a lot to offer but better than nothing, could only shoot miniguns and cannons. I took that idea and upsized it with one of the H86/Op4 planet destroyers (as they were known) since the manual fire weapons were disabled by then on CVs on planet. People hated it, called it cheap, made their own. It wasn’t over powered, it had relatively minor amount of offensive strength and could take a beating.
Then there was the garage CV September (or November cant remember), a great idea and a good looking CV that had only BA turrets. It worked out great for space PvP, but I didn’t think it would be such a killer til it wiped a tower I had effortlessly. A lot of people had problems with this CV having a complement of BA turrets, so much that they were removed and replaced with I think CV or HV turrets, either way it left a bad taste that a lot of people are not over.

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Lol Im surprised that CV was remembered. Yout have it right though, it was actually a bit more effective than you might think. It was basically a protected cockpit and engines, with only miniguns and cannon turrets. All turrets were set to only fire at weapons and turrets, a pilot would fly one into position, then transfer into a combat sv, leaving the fly swatter hovering in place, taking any shots it could at the biggest threat we had at the time, a micro SV design meant to be cheap and stupid maneuverable. Due to how jacked the weapon physics were at the time, it was literally impossible to hit these little bastards even with homing rockets if they were at full speed. The turrets were hitscan weapons though, so the perfect barricade against them. The biggest benefit though, was that it was cheaper than an HV, and could run interference at higher altitudes, removing the option for SV’s to hover above our line and fire down.

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I still remember the good old days when manual artillery of an hv shooted further than autofire artillery… damn that was good.

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Personally, I think this rule is excellent! Of course it depends on what side of the argument you are on. However, it definitely makes the fight much fairer in terms of ships. I can’t even afford a Titan, same with the rest of OH. We usually buy a few Hercules for the season and use them. ABN, FV, FU, TAW, etc have spent a long time gaining wealth. So long that sometimes they can bring excessively high amounts of ships against us.

On Titan last season - with only 2 weeks left in the season - an ABN member told me 12 of their players bought Titans JUST FOR USE THAT DAY ON Titan!! 12 players could afford a 45 million on the spot purchase for two weeks of use. Thats insane, and our three players defending the base (including myself using a macbook) could not compete with that kind of competition.

Then, shortly afterwards they brought (or used old Titans) two Titans against our base on GG, even with a 1 CV limit, because they could ignore the warnings for five minutes. Which is understandable, when my group was attacking GG awhile ago I brought a class 3 CV (an unmodified Hercules) against the base, and I warped to HW waited a minute then warped back.

It shouldn’t be exploitable but if it is people will, I know I’m done with that. Too much hassle, I modify all my Hercs to class 1 now. You could tank the base for a solid 45seconds with a CV t2 shield gen, it was insane! Just sit there with the Hercules, everyone else was fine, shields where all full, wait for mine to get to 10% (about 45 seconds) then back off. Made it way too powerful, I think we should completely remove CVs because they are just too powerful.

A 50block CV can be super manueverable and very effective at shielding anything it wants to in PvP, especially since Titans and other mega ships can’t come in. I’m hoping it’s harder to ram bases with multiple CVs and get away with it now.

OH can usually hold its ground on HW ( forum post about that HERE ) but on GG mega factions / alliances will bring more ships than they are allowed and use them to ram us or even just tank back and forth, let a ship go in - get its shields down - then leave, right as the other comes back in to do the same. No way to counter it and no way to stop it, ships go into space and warp out. This is the fix I personally was waiting on, and one that gives my faction a chance.

Last season on Titan (yes, it was Titan so CVs are allowed) I already mentioned how they bought 12 Titans just for use against us (which doesn’t break any rules) but weeks before that they also rammed a CV into @Israel_T-C’s base when we where defending it. The base actually probably would have held if it weren’t for the CV Shmak precariously suicided into the side of Israel’s bases. They hid behind it with SVs and HVs just peaking out to hurt the top or sides of the base, if we had two more players it would have held. It was just hard to stop 7 or 8 players doing that against his base with 3 of us.

I reached the same conclusion Rex did, to make PvP even possible between mega factions and smaller factions CVs must not be allowed, they make it impossible to defend or attack a base. However, we still have Titan that we can use them on, and I am open to allowing them onto SOME HW planets as long as the main HW planet that has always been no CVs allowed remains that way. There could even possibly be an event on one of those planets to draw players so garage CVs would be useful.

Sincerely, WillEatsPie

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Definitely not, cv’s should not be allowed on any planets at all, not even on Titan.

CV’s are used as a mobile base like defense except they can’t fire their heavy guns. The main thing cv’s are used for on planets is to dump them on bases and to use them as a mobile base to attack from. Bases should not be made worthless in this way.

Bases should be the hardest structure to take down an a planet. Not just be taken down by someone dumping huge cv’s on it, which essentially makes them useless.

Also, this will discourage veterans like me from putting down bases. Even more so new players who will not want to pvp anymore. Which is what we don’t want right?

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From a not pvp perspective, i would also ban all cv’s from planets at all. When the game first came out, think even before it went multiplayer, you had to build and use the cv in space… When you came to a planet, you planned for what you needed, and took the sv down. With the hv to sv dock comming, that sircle is perfect. I do not belive that in the real future, humanity will build huge huge spaceships to land with, but to live on, and explore new places in space.

But, thats my thoughts only :wink:

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I don’t mind the idea of small CVs on planets, and I wouldn’t be completely against it either if CV shields were disabled when they are in atmosphere. Since the introduction of shields I feel we have been in a downward slope, PvP became boring honestly. The advantage of using a CV on planet is both it’s mobility and the shields. Bases have one of those luxuries.

I would actually go as far as saying it would be better off without the shields.

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I still see a place for a small 150 block cv on planet. Its gives players a chance to do a poi on a hostile planet like laver world and have someware to spawn as well as the abilaty to have all the difrent healing points including a shower for rads. As a poi aid this is something a hv attached to an sv will not provide.

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It sounds like the bigger issue for you is constantly being outnumbered. You said it yourself if you had two or three more people you would’ve been just fine. Not only that but you were dealing with garage ships with full planetary arsenal, that’s an HWS issue not an Empyrion issue.
The issue with CV isn’t directly a CV problem. Rather I feel the turrets on bases aren’t as effective against CV as they should be (don’t forget, BA can be set up in space too…), and also bases are no longer able to be placed underground. Although this had it’s own problems, constantly complaining about CVs on planets was not one of them.
But again, I’m positive you can find a way to deal with this “problem” using the weapons config rather than just removing the ability to bring ships onto planets.

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totally agree Kit. i know it is rough when a faction is very large and has a lot of great players. this shouldn’t mean the bigger factions should be punished for being so large. they were not grown overnight. lots of time and effort has been put into growing stronger. it does suck when u dont have several members that can be relied on to come to ur aide but this shouldn’t be a reason to nerf something simply because it is an unfair advantage to smaller factions. recruit and train to get stronger. i say pvp planets should have class 1 CV aside from GG @ the 150 block limit and space allow class 5 CV. also would like to see the 150 CV block limit for HW & Eton planets. a stripped down omnipotus works wonders on planet :slight_smile: