HWS 6.X.X Patch | Economy 2.0 | Tax 2.0

HWS Announcements
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How does this have any baring on limiting the profits of the wealthy? Rhea’s and other server made ships are the rewards, the END game rewards of grinding out the game. Many of the veteran players complain that there isn’t anything to do in the game, that there aren’t people to kill… Here is why. When new players see you all attacking wealthy players, and do the math of how to make that wealth to get the Rhea or other ships, much less the OCD, they see how the game on HWS is increasingly being made to hurt them too.

The job of the new player is to mine and grind the ore to sell on the market. The wealthy players have actually done a good job of buying that ore at prices that range between 15,000 and 5,000, with a stable 10,000 per stack average. Tesla is one prime example of people who just for kicks, spends his wealth on buying people’s stuff that they try to sell. Thus helping the server. Attacking people like him, or anything else who are wealthy, only shows the would be player that you will attack them for being successful.

The bank interest isn’t broken, but the direction these changes are demonstrating is a clear desire to control peoples game play. The bank should never have existed in the first place, I warned against it then, that warning fell on deaf ears. Now that it is part of the game, and the only way to achieve OCD 6, much less 7, you attack it again.

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As for the difficulty issue with the game, since the server introduced the origin’s element of the game, veteran players of the game have enjoyed the diffuclty of the starter worlds… But new players, the one’s who are not using your comm’s, but have observed the way suggestions are struck down verimently, have chosen rather than struggle and be attacked, to just find other servers to play on. This leaves HWS with a static player base, but then you add the instablity (nurffs, and other non-essential changes like wiping the server or moving planets twice in one season), much less 2 to 3 month seasons, only generates a disinterest in playing on a server which requires a lot of time and effort to be put into it.

Most people have real lives, attend college, work forty to sixty hours a week. They do not have the time to invest in 2 month seasons. Little can be argued against the 7 day wipe, and I won’t make such an argument as it is a server necessity to keep core counts low. But the number of changes which have occured, and the frequency of their occurnc, contributes to the anxieties of new players who you largely will not meet. They log in, see the starter planet, see that there is only one level of difficulty, and don’t survive for more than ten minutes and then leave. Why? Because starter worlds are meant to be 1/10th the diffuclty of the rest of the server. That means if they are dying every ten minutes on what should be easy, they won’t be abel to have fun where it is supposed to be ten times more difficult, even on the PVE planets.

Like I said earlier, like writing a novel, you have 5 minutes, or about 7 pages to capture the reader’s attention and make them go from skimming the page, to reading the first chapter. If you do not get them to in that hook, you lost them forever.

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Now my turn, thanks for feedback, Lokiet.
You right, I have money, and I value each 1 credits of my money, and purchasing normal staff with normal prices. I never will buy sathium ore for 50k credits, it is overvaluated.

But there is one problem.
Every time you come up with new rules. And I will notice that everything is going on to complicate things. To limit bankers, you complicate the tax system, make the binding of taxes to bank interest. What is wrong. Of the 100% of people who visit the ECC planet, only 30% can receive interest, maybe 50%, but not more. And you are trying to kill two posters on planet, through the introduction of a complex tax system. At you and so not the simple server, and all of you move towards the complicated deadlock. I asked the Fulgrim to remove his inadequate posters, and he removed it. Well done.

And yet, no laws can kill simple movements of ordinary people. When you write the law in real life, you realize that there is “no protection from a fool people”, and there is no way to write down all notes, amendmends and appendixes to Law. Therefore, never admins will not be able to limit the actions of players, and even if it works, even if in theory, it will kill the gameplay.

About trade.
In October 2016, I went for the first time to hws. And within an hour I sold 60 pentaxid via EM, which simply called for running on the hills, then I realized that I could play here, because within an hour I received more than 100,000 credits.
Trading cycles here are different, at the beginning of the season, pricing for rare items is higher than at the ore, at the end of the season, rare things are falling in price, derivatives in the form of generators and constructors are growing. And you can not limit it to any laws. Do you agree, Rex?
Suppliers power, Buyers power, Industry producers, monopoly and oligopoly games with prices, you cant control with rules, is it gameplay, am I right ?

Yes a lot of money now, but believe me better that all this money was spent on liquid goods, and people earned more than usual. You all write about inflation, but it was the admins who started it first. Do you remember OCD7 for 7 billion credits ? A sale of BP ships is 1-4 million now ? Are you worriyng about newcomers ? I dont think so.
You yourself gave a ceiling of price expectations, which is worth and how much. And you are trying to blame business people who have collaborated in the survival game in order to survive and earn a little more.

And banks are not money, understand. This is a new level of trust when one player gives another 100 million on just word, believing in hope, believing in new financial instruments, believing in something new on this old but reliable server. Thanks to all F&R Bank shareholders personally, for 2.3 billion trust to Nikola Tesla, I know someone are happy, someone are not :slight_smile: they want to have more billions with me :slight_smile:

Rex thanks for update. I earn a lot of money since 7/06/17, and I control this money (my portion), in compare with other people, like Fulgrim and Scorp. And thanks, that you killed banking today, Im happy. Banking is bad, it will destroy game, markets, and game engagement. I’m spending my money for helping newcomers, and im purchasing ore, ingots, and other things. It is circulation of money in nature. And I will wait, when you will kill banking completely …

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Taking another look at your new banking system, which forces players to buy extremely high priced interest bank rates, lets put this in prespective.

Your core complaint is that too much wealth is in too few hands, and your solution is to force players to buy expensive banking ratings with limited funds. Assume that the average person has only 20 million credits to begin with. You spend half of that to obtain bank lvl 3. It will take you a long time to recover that money, no matter how you play the game.

Every bank rating there after, becomes that much more expensive, and priced that much further out of the reach of the average player. How precisely is this to help the little guy? The new player? This new system prices the small player out of the banking (all markets center around banks) system, and will only generate further dislike for the haves of the server, who are largely insulated against these changes. This is a good way to inch the server toward accepting the full wipe of everyone’s OCD and bank entirely.

Additionally, the wealthy players who have 70 million credits and the saved bank, will just buy the bank 5, and then rinse and repeat what they do now that creates this so called inflation. As a result, while you might cap their ability to do this, you do little if anything to help the lower player.

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I hope you meant this in a metaphoric way, because I don’t think that our admin is changing the server rules only because that, that would be a very harsh argument.
By leaving your commercial posters there you just gave evidence to everyone, especially new players, that the economic system is obviously broken: You are buying tons of gold offering more credits than its usual value, what shows that you probably have a bank account far above the maximum amount which you can hold after the full wipe. So you are trying to convert it into gold which you can put into your level 7 OCD, what cost 700.000.000 to upgrade. So people can get an idea of what you achieved here in only 10 month, because you wrote you were playing since October 2016.
I am not blaming you for this! Nobody should. You played the game and made the best use of all the options you had. You are an extremely skilled trader and you earned my respect for your achievements on HWS.

BUT, we have to ask the question: Should this be possible? Was this intended?

Now the next question is, how to balance the gameplay equitably for a beginner with 0 credits and for one with such an enourmous amount of credits. If something costs one million I can only hardly achieve it while you are probably laughing about it.
Another example is the server performance in combination with the tax system. The tax system can be used to improve server performance by preventing players from camping in high traffic systems (they have to pay tax then). This simply did not apply to everyone who had much higher interest than the tax needed to pay.
Again, I am not blaming anyone, just saying it did not work and the reason was interest.

If there is a huge gap in wealth between players, it’s very hard to balance server performance and other things, if you want to use the credit system to achieve that. Keep in mind that beside RP, credits/gold, is the only late game element on HWS until now, so this needs to work. If everyone is happy with that, then new players come and stay - that’s what we all want. We want the server to be highly populated with mostly satisfied players, so we all can have fun here. But our perspectives on how to achieve this might be different.

It’s nearly September 2017 now. Does it still work? I got only 1.5 Mil now. After nearly 3 month of intensive playing on HWS (too intense sometimes lol). I’m going to buy my OCD Level 6 in a few days then… :wink:

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The fact that there is an OCD 7 that costs 700mil is proof that this was intended in the first place. How else was anyone ever going to be able to get OCD 7 if they didn’t pull off a combined banking venture? Don’t forget that until very recently the price of OCD 7 was 7 billion also. People HAD to do this to achieve it. If reaching OCD 7 wasn’t intentional then there shouldn’t have been an OCD 7.

It’s just sad that some people actually had the opportunity to legitimately reach OCD 7 and the rest of us probably never will now (not that OCD 7 is needed at all, but dreams)

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Maybe the point is that it wasn’t supposed to be so easy to do, unless you have a full faction behind you. Easy in relative terms, btw - MOST people don’t have it, but still a decent population does.

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A full faction behind you or an alliance between factions to pool money together, doesn’t matter. That is exactly what happened here. They were successful, and now other people won’t be able to.

Edit I have no knowledge of what anyone did with the money, and I don’t care. Some people had the opportunity to reach big and now others can’t. I’m not complaining either, just stating the facts.

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Yes, I think a logical step would be to adjust the upgrade price for the OCD 7.

To resign from the dream of becoming absurdly rich is the price new players (including myself) have to pay for a fair and working economy.
I had a closer look at the old and new EB upgrade levels in comparison. It’s easier now to get 2% interest for example: Before it was on level 4 and upgrade costs were 61 Million credits and 90 RP in total, now you get 2% interest on level 2 for 20 RP and 2 Mil.
So it’s easier for new players now to get decent amounts of interests early, but the most important change is the maximum amount of 2.5 Mil of interest per day. In the very late game it won’t be possible any more to generate absurd amounts of credits. 2.5 Mil per day is still more than most of us ever need.

The total amount of credits needed to upgrade to EB Level 5 was reduced from 131 Mio. to 72 Mio.
Total RP costs were reduced from 160 to 140.

All the changes make a lot of sense to me.

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You have just described envy, the fact that he can laugh about the cost, despite him buying high cost ores and selling them cheaper.

The best solution to players ignoring the tax, is to delete their ships after 48 plus hours of being taxed, or a tax limiter before it is deleted. This ship issue in taxed regions is also unrelated to the fix that Rex is about to implement, a fox that only needlessly complicates the bank system, rendering it less useful to newer players. It would be better to keep the bank unchanged, as buying bank levels prices them out of the ability of most new players to engage in. This high price is what encouraged players to pool their gold and give it to one player in the first place. Humans are afterall, a communal species when faced against adversity.

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I take back what I said. My apologies for not understanding this correctly once again. This update would actually benefit newbies more with the higher interest rates despite the limitations.

You can now make 400,000 credits from the interest at 2% interest with the cheap upgrade to eb level 2 and passive play is also still achievable to get to eb level 3 and earn max 900,000 credits per day as opposed to 700,000 credits per day previously with the max 70 million donation cap as that was my goal anyway, since I only have 26 million credits so this has indeed made it easier for the non mega rich to earn more money.

It does seem to balance the gap more now. Fantastic update. Well done Rex!!

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IDK but i think bank it is just a feature to buy\use HWS services and keep some money after full wipe. But someone use it like main game goal. Tesla i know were you dropped as a child and you fell on your head (“now our relationship does down to ZZZ++±—” :joy:). But empyrion not a banking simulator. This bank brake all gameplay. Like a toons of POI with gold and PVE with all res. No one fly around the universe no one digging gold or other resourses. Universe is empty. When i open the Str commander i see that PVP playfields is empty.

But for me i see bank in this way:

Interest - 1% per day on all levels.
1level - max 10mil credits deposit. 5% transaction fine\tax (tf) If you are not in EGS Bank tf = 10% on all levels.
2 - 20mi 4% tf
3 - 30mil 3% tf
4 - 50mil 2% tf
5 - 75mil 1% tf(yeah want to keep 70 mil after wipe with donation - you need upgrade you bank acc and store money)

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Thats wrong.
At this moment you paid 72kk not 35 kk …

so you need 72kk / 2,5kk = 29 Days for getting back you investment when you still have 50kk left on bank at the first day

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Bad when there are new laws, and these laws have no economic meaning.

Banks are banks, taxes are taxes. Should not be so that taxes depend on your banking operations
Yes even a billion will have to pay every day for parking, a smart player will always find an adequate and legal solution (and I already found how to get around this), or will also receive the maximum bank interest. But the other people, and most of them will be just beginners, will fall, and suffer all the suffering on the forums, chats, continuing to put pressure on the admins, although it seemed to me that building an effective server is when minimizing the pressure on administrators from the game world …

Admins themselves have done so that now everyone must fly to the ECC planet, for trade, as well as to use the bank, and also to use OAMs. Now, the suffering began, that too many ships were in orbit of the ESE. You decide what you want. If there are too many ships, separate again, spread in galaxy. You are brought into one zone.

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@RexXxuS, no problem if you will correct “one guy” to “very smart talented financial guy Nikola Tesla” :slight_smile:

Im newcomer here, playing just 10 months, however I read all rules and laws here, and find new potential topics for development. If banking will die, we need another financial instruments. 70kk insurance packages are implemented many time ago, and a lot of people already reached this level, without banking. They need new financial derivatives, storages, values, or ideas about using their accumulated money. Or they just need to purchase items and put into ocd ?
Banking is very easy, lets make more financial options / futures / shares / spreads / project financing schemes / etc. :slight_smile:

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I was calculating each investment as a singular not as everything below it as when you upgrade you should have already committed to the upgrades below it and any upgrade you made further will only decrease the time you already have to wait on the previous upgrades due to having more interest per day.

If you read as well I already mentioned exactly what you have said:

Also with RP costs stopping you from buying more than 1 upgrade at a time, there will be rest periods in between where your tax is slowly paying it off so by the time you get EB 5 you won’t have any where near 29 days left to pay it off it will be a lot less, its also a dynamic thing and dependent on player so you cant put that into math as a whole you have to do it seperatly.

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I don’t think the problem is that there are to many ships going to ECC it’s that too many ships are staying there for more than a few hours at a time, and this is due to low tax’s and tax’s only been applied at 9am, if taxes where more often at ECC then no one would camp there they would go, do their business and get out in fear of staying too long and getting a massive fine.

Or when patch day comes and you can only take 70mill accross or gold in your ocd what will you do with your 2.3bil :stuck_out_tongue: except for buying gold at 1mil for 999 and making everyone rich too :stuck_out_tongue:

Investments is interesting thou :smiley:, what if you could invest into another faction holding an area then you will be making money if that faction can hold that area and it’ll be in your interest to defend that faction when they are under attack, could be interesting.

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Dont overdo it guys. While bank is an issue as it was its not whats killing the game or something.
All problems with base game, not HWS features, are killing the game, at least for me.

Current unability to fire of my SVs for example…why would i play game which is completly broken. While i can loose stuff without being sad, I would expect that ill just throw in one SV after another as i would never run out. But fighting is so shitty right now that ill just sit and wait until its fixed if ever.

So i would suggest speculating about numbers of this new change, as i consider that constructive, for all other stuff we wrote here…its not that much of a problem, or not related to bank.

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It’s nice that everything is getting a balance pass on HWS side so that when the Dev’s decide to finaly go to beta and optimize their game then everything will be ready… but who know’s how long till beta T_T

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Im considering starting a family so my children will see beta, I wont as im too old already, but at least my children or their children will have a chance :smiley:

Ahh going to work a bit, im too upset with current version and draging this off topic :smiley:

But yeah, still think we should just bring some numbers we would like to see for bank, do some calculations for how long it will take to break even as Fulgrim says and so, if its possible to get OCD 7 somehow, even when ppl are cooperating on it, how many ppl have to cooperate and such…its not killing bank, its more like balancing bank a bit, it really was overkill.

About taxes used to remove ships on ECC im not sure if thats right way, it will work for sure, but what i dont like is…what if ill have to leave ship on ECC from RL reasons, and somehow it will be for 3 days with me not signing for interest…that will be nasty, ill loose a lot without doing it intentionaly…

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