HWS 6.X.X teaser | Goodbye fixed wipes, hello individual wipes | Guilty 2.0

HWS Announcements
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44

Hmm I counter that strategy with the ability to only EGS:noguilty in a specific (PVP) system and not anywhere, then if people run to hide on their planet they will still be loosing 1RP per day and when they leave they will still be visible and would have to rush to the chosen system where they can EGS:noguilty.

In the case of pirates, its always fun when people know they are coming and can plan accordingly. (Get ready etc.) Maybe it won’t be such a bad thing to encourage pirates to be guilty as often as possible by giving them +1RP per day that they are guilty, but then comes the problem of where do they log off to sleep, cant get rp if you EGS:noguilty at night before the timer tick the next morning.

What if there was 1 system where guilty people could hide that was a decent distance away from the other systems and as long as they stayed in that system they are not visible on map, a place of retreat. I remember back in 2.0 when someone entered a system it showed their name entering system, is it possible to add this back only to guilty people so that when they entered system everyone would get that message and know instantly that it was someone dangerous coming to hunt.

P.S. Could make it a little more fun if the EGS:noguilty command had a 5 min delay, so when they land in the system they have to survive for a whole 5 minutes before it kicked in, and people sitting their waiting for their revenge could try get it.

P.S² I’m not sure if EGS:noguilty is the right command, or if its type-able anywhere atm, feel free to correct me if necessary xD Also I know there is no where near enough time to add any of this if you chose to so maybe a consideration for 7.0 or something.

45

Rexx my suggestion is to have two types of fame one reputation in the good and infamy in the bad. I think this might help for people to distinguish the bad and the good.

But then again i think the guilty system as a whole is faulty because in pvp we fight against each-other only in terms of factions not in terms of whos guardian or whos pirate.

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46

I really hope Homeworld is not set on the PvPvE rotation, IMO any planet that spawns gold meteorites should by default be constant PvP, risk for the reward.

Otherwise its another Armageddon, tons of people when its PvE, not much when its PvP.

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47

This is very reasonable, as a preferred pirate I would have no problem staying that origin. Otherwise it would be 99% guardian/1% trader.

48

Anything with no pvpve rotation will be deserted with 0 bases on it, i think having gold on pve is a decent sacrifice for having bases on pvp planets, I guess a better alt would be for 1 gold planet no rotation and rotation planets around it with no gold, but isn’t that already the case? not really familiar with current universe.

49

I agree with Taco i don’t think there should be any rotations what so ever on a pvp planet or in pvp anywhere. That makes no sense. Pvp is not a babysitting area, its a think or die area. Further, if pvp planets are made rotations people will build around a base they want to take when its pve and have their turrets fire at each-other when its turned pvp.

Who will want to build on a pvp area anymore that when its turned pve someone can surround them with turrets without the defender able to do anything until everything is set up and the turrets start firing at their bases when its turned to pvp?

On the “anyone who kills a guardian is guilty” makes no sense when a guardian faction or whatever origin faction attacks a freelancer or pirate or hunter base. Aren’t they being forced to defend themselfs if they get attacked. Why would you punish that its combat action and pvp in a pvp area?

50

Not quite, we have multiple bases on PvP planet, and we don’t mind having a permanent presence.

Should be more interesting now that class size 1 will be enforced on all PvP zones.

Gold should not be easily gotten risk free. If so then wtf is the point of buying a 3-4mil rhea/q when you can troll around all day with a HV on PvE?

Reward for the risk. No reward if you want safety.

51

Alright last update about the current state. And with current I really mean it is current since we couldn’t wait or flag the patches on hold till 6.X.X. So it is already LIVE:

  • You have to kill a Guardian now 10 times before you get guilty! Not instant anymore.

This should balance some “theories” and “mistakes” by killing “cops”.

  • I strongly recommend to read the guide regarding the RP system again

And Gold will belong to PvP, high risk = high reward. However there are some ways to implement Gold also on PvE with missions for example.
Regarding PvPvE rotations: it is up to you to build smart enough that people can’t camp you during PvE times. I already saw a lot of good rotation defenses to prevent this.

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52

Already withdrawn all forward operation bases, have to analyse the new universe first and then develop a settle & attack strategy.

Could work with the latest modifications Rex had announced. If it will be fail or fun is very dependent on the final adjustments like CSW last hideout yes/no.

53

I think the idea that you become guilty when you attack a guardian is good and would not have been abused.

How do I come to that conclusion?
Guardians and Traders get a -10 RP penalty and become instant guilty for killing another trader or guardian. I did not hear about any case where a guardian or trader was running into death to make another one get the -RP and guilty status. Of course I don’t know everything about the server. My feedback is limited to my perspective, but the other players who gave their feedback are in the same situation. Traders and guardians could have been abusing the RP penalty all the time, but did that happen? I guess not.

Of course, Guardians would have gotten a little advantage once they know the location of another base and attack it. Dying while doing so would result in the defending player becoming guilty. For pirates that is not a big deal in any case, they gain +1 RP for becoming guilty. Depending on the amount of money they have, that could be even a better deal than buying RP from the EGS. I don’t want to say that pirates should lose RP for being guilty, but giving all other origins, except pirates this penalty means to give pirates an even greater advantage compared to other origins, resulting in greater imbalance between them.
Adapting to the changes is as simple as it was before: You hide your base from other players at all costs.

If my guess is correct, it was intended to enable Guardians to fulfill their role as the “police” by making other players avoiding fights with them. That makes a lot of sense to me. And just to remember: Guardians and Traders already live with that and it seems to work, so why should it not work for other origins?

About guilty:
Being guilty is only a problem if you did not prepare enough RP and money to lose the guilty status, and of course you don’t want to be guilty at your deep space base, revealing it’s location to the hunterboard. So before going into PvP after the changes you should probably prepare for such a situation and that perfectly fits into empyrion’s survival gameplay. Or am I wrong here?

If you attack a guardian 10 times and then become guilty, it is like not becoming guilty at all because it will not prevent other players from attacking a police officer (as I assume was intended with the initial change). Maybe another compromise can be found, e.g. 3 times instead of 10 times.

I think some aspects of the feedback given here were based on wrong presumptions that were already disproved by the trader and guardian player’s behaviour that was experienced on the server. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

54

It’s pirates thou, they are expected to cause chaos and havoc, but unlike the police they aren’t organised, unlike hunter’s they don’t have stealth and finesse, they are out in the open completely exposed hoping for a bloody battle. It kind of suits them to be visible on map at most times compared to other factions, and being visible is a big disadvantage in the first place, so to say that there is an imbalance is quite the opposite as pirates will spend more time being guilty than any other faction.

I think the only reason traders and guardians don’t attack each other is because both sides have something to loose, where as if a guardian attacks a hunter that isn’t guilty, that is where abuse can occur, but with 10 deaths to becoming guilty the chance of abuse is dropped all the way to 0, with 3 it’s still possible, as 3 guardians could just team up and all raid together.

But either way it’ll be best seen in practice the rest of this season will be very interesting :]

55

Not sure that change matters Rexx but why aren’t guardians made guilty if they kill a freelancer, hunter or and maybe pirate? If their such cops as you say aren’t they not supposed to go around killing people at will? If their cops and do this they also become guilty in the real world. So shouldn’t they then become guilty?

But anyways i don’t really get the guilty system to begin with. If they are cops then this means they can shouldn’t go around attacking anyone? If their cops then this is how it should be. Cops have a system of apprehend suspect not oh his freelancer shot him?

I’ll go read more up on the origin and reputation system because i may not be comprehending something.

56

I would like to know the answer to a specific question if i as a freelancer i kill another freelancer that is from an enemy faction with my sv manual guns do i become guilty? I hope not otherwise the whole guilty system makes no sense.

57

Israel, please do me a favor and read the HWS Story before assuming or suspect everyting.
Here you go:

https://forum.empyrion-homeworld.net/c/hws-guide/story

Your question marks above your head should be hopefully clear then.
For example this one:

Why bringing a new random question if it is not mentioned in the guide anywhere. Of course they won’t get guilty.

On the other hand if you have specific Guide questions please create a new topic.
Thanks.

58

I think the only reason traders and guardians don’t attack each other is because both sides have something to loose

I could craft a warp sled with no turrets mounted, fly to a trader’s base and let it kill me.
After that I will spawn at my base again. What did I lose? Nothing.
If that is such a great exploit, why have people not been doing this all the time? I think it was already proven that it can work and it’s pointless to say it wouldn’t.

Regarding pirates you were not saying anything about the balancing issue. Pirates get an advantage now, all other origins don’t. Problem solved? Maybe if you are a pirate. I believe that many players who chose guardian now will not do that again. It’s a very weak origin compared to the benefits of others.

1 Like
59

But what change would you suggest for guardian to make them more attractive to play?

60

I’m guessing this is the passage you were talking about?

I will paraphrase to what i think this means. This means an enemy faction of guardians will not be found guilty for killing another enemy faction of guardians with hand weapons and manual guns? And a pirate faction that has freelancers and hunters in it will not be found guilty for killing an enemy faction of a guardian with hand weapons and manual guns? Correct?

If i’m wrong somewhere let me know specifically where. Thank you Rexx.

61

The initial change was a good idea and it was not overpowered because you can always leave guilty by visiting the EGS and paying the credits. You also have to prepare the 1 RP that you will lose, if you can’t afford that (e.g. going to zero and losing your fa:supply). Veterans should be laughing about the 1 RP penalty.
It did totally make sense to me. It makes guardian ships a less attractive target, what fits totally into their role. The police is never an attractive target, even for criminals. You have to think twice before you attack a guardian player, but you can still do it if you really want to and can afford it.

I am a guardian and was attacked by two traders at the black hole last weekend. As you know, as guardian I would become guilty and get -10 RP if I kill a trader. Now that is a decent amount compared to -1 RP penalty! I believe they had much ores with them and not the strongest ships. They could have “trolled” me, but I assume they did not because they did not want to lose their ships and fresh ore. I believe they were just afraid or wanted a little funfight. However, I guess I damaged their ships heavily before warping out. I could have set my turrets to attack other turrets only to avoid a player kill (not tested yet if that would work, maybe someone knows) or totally disable them and warp into a PvE zone. So there might be a way of making someone incapable of fighting without killing him. You can always avoid fights by warping out. This is how I try to handle trader aggressions as a guardian player and I think this way of dealing with that is applicable to other origins as well.

For a pirate it’s still very attractive to attack a guardian player, so their role is not disturbed in any way.

If it remains this way I suggest to make a comparison of all origin-unique RP and credit gains from the faction supplies that are mentioned in the guide under “Strengths” for each origin. RP is becoming a more and more central element of the game (e.g. cloak) where guardians have a huge disadvantage. Guardian players would much more easily accept this if there would be another unique advantage for compensation. But now there is no decent one.

At the faction supplies I would have a closer look at gold or credits since they can get converted into RP at the EGS.
Guardian players do not get any gold or credits in their faction supply.

For example traders have a huge passive credit income in their fa:supply, that can be converted into RP. They also gain RP very easily through warping, what leads to a (nearly) passive RP income.

Guardians have their strongest weakness in only gaining RP through hunterboard or pirate player kills. The pirate player kills are the only unique way of gaining RP for this origin. Please compare the investment of time and skills that are necessary to gain these 3 RP with warping your ship, or visiting EGS for example. Also pirates get 3 RP for any(!) player kill. It’s about math to find out that the investment of time is much less than for guardians since there are much more players on the server than pirates.

I see a lot of imbalance here. It is very important to give each origin a way of gaining RP with the same investment of time and skills. Otherwise gaining RP is too time consuming, therefore unsatisfying and not worth to try.
RP becomes even more important with the new cloak feature…
I think there are many ways to adjust RP gains. Guardians could get an RP gain for warping for example, but something totally diffrent might solve the problem as well…

62

If only there was a way for guardians to gain RP through helping other players, it would fit quite nicely. Maybe a command like egs:honor:“PlayerID”, so if a guardian flies out to save someone stuck in space with no pentaxid they could type this command and the guardian would get +1RP and there could be a limit of 3 RP earned per day for the guardian or something. And maybe each player only has the ability to honor 1 guardian player (not in same faction) per day so it couldn’t be abused.

63

Good things here. Some good insight from players perspective to some RP things I had in mind :wink:

However some notes from me:

  • Pirates don’t get 3 RP but only 1 RP for killing other players
  • no Origin has a “passive” income but need to active do something. Ok, maybe the living in PvE for traders but for reasons…
  • I totally agree that the idea about killing guardian = punishment is good and needed but the change to 10 kills was mainly done because we don’t have a mechanism yet to know who it is in front of you. In real life there is a reason why cops have red/blue lights on the car, a loud horn, etc. So 10 kills addressing the the real Berserkers out there. Let’s see how it turns out and maybe 5 is enough in the future
  • a rebalancement is part of 6.X.X let’s see how it is balanced after that
  • good idea Kogami but too easy to abuse of course. I know this is the last puzzle piece to make RP legend on HWS but at the moment… hmm… as long as there is no way to automate things it can be always exploited easily by players.
    Only thing what we try more and more now is to achieve this with PDA missions. But they are quite static. Hopefully player driven missions are possible in the future
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