MAKING it illegal to sell blue print with out the permission from the owner

[Rabid]

All im saying is that not even half of my faction voted much less half my alliance.

Donors dont get special say in anything, you are foolish to include this in your argument

Those of us who are selling ships havent been toxic about it, we simply put the ships up for sale and came here to watch this whole drama bomb blow up (and do our best to tone it down)

You also seem un-nessicarily concerned that you will be somehow humiliated by your ships being sold? Is it not an honor for the ship to be seen as worthy by your enemy and also whoever is buying it?

[Zackey_TNT]

1st - The vote wasn’t closed by me, it’s still up there. And even now, with well over 36 votes, the majority is still clear.

2nd Donors support the server and are often players of long term standing. Their opinion, like everyone else’s is valued and appropriated but their support doesn’t go unnoticed.

3rd - Yes, you might not have been toxic about it personally but others have been. It’s been an incredible source of toxicity both here on the forums and on server.

4th I am not “Unnecessarily concerned” about my ships or that of my factions being humiliated by being sold. I just personally don’t find it to be an “honor” that you poached a design and then sold it to the rest of the public server with the sign “ABN kill” etc etc. That comment is frankly insulting and you know what your doing…

Let’s look at average joe who just gets into pvp, someone who dies and has their ship sold at auction on ECC. To them, their works and creative efforts have been poached by another player and is now basically public domain, with the entire server having basically the same rights as him except for the fact that you can’t repost it to the forums/public space. What difference does that make if HWS IS the public forum, the largest server.

Selling ships only discourages technological development and newer pvp players from even bothering.

Let me ask you a simple question - What does this do for HWS and the community at large? Give me a reason why this system outweighs all of the above points and concerns raised by it! Why is it worth keeping after all of this?

[TacoIsland]

So, to sum the whole drama scenario up:

@Rabid

Those of us who are selling ships havent been toxic about it, we simply put the ships up for sale and came here to watch this whole drama bomb blow up (and do our best to tone it down)

This is the intention, plain and simple. And to add insult to injury:

@Zackey_TNT

4th I am not “Unnecessarily concerned” about my ships or that of my factions being humiliated by being sold. I just personally don’t find it to be an “honor” that you poached a design and then sold it to the rest of the public server with the sign “ABN kill” etc etc. That comment is frankly insulting and you know what your doing…

That is what hits the head of the nail. Nevermind the ships are being sold, but plastering ABN all over ships sold as what can be described as ABN war trophies. But, wasn’t there a clause somewhere that may apply?

Behavior & Chat

2. Behavior & Community

2.1 Please be respectful to others, even those not in your direct global conversation. This means: No racism, no sexist remarks, no shaming or verbal abuses.

2.2 It is widely acknowledged that ‘Smack Talking’ is a big part of any competitive sport. When doing so, please be mindful that you are in a game with dozens or even hundreds of others who can see you. Know your limits, and limit your passion to a reasonable degree. Comments that are explicitly intended to be defamatory or to provoke others should be kept off of global chat. Just in case: make use of the “ Mute chat ” feature by pressing B and click on the Speaker icon for that player you want to mute.

Technically this could be applied, but that’s not up to me. I really don’t care about old blueprints, but I really didn’t go around blueprinting my kills of seasons past unless they were practically complete or had a design I was interested in using in the future, let alone selling them as war trophies. The majority of veterans I am sure could care less. All it shows at this point is the low level of maturity or “salt” still inflicted of seasons past.

So, lets look at why the drama:

So, obviously to shame Op4 and DAR factions in this picture, might as well mention ACP as well. Can’t mistake that ABN tag on each. But if you really checked a blueprint from prior seasons, the Op4 SV 2 was actually made by @Vandruis that I captured a couple seasons ago (obviously ACP for those not in-the-know). Never flown the SV 1, couldn’t tell you a thing about it, was on a break for season 8. Couldn’t tell you about DAR faction either. Much hate for Op4 i see from the inventory.

What happened to the love?

Wasn’t very long ago that ABN was in good standing with TAW. Now the thread is down to nothing more than causing unnecessary drama for really no reason. Sell the ships for all I care, for all I know they were captured on 1v6 circumstances. My point is, the entire thing is ridiculous arguments on both sides. You sell old blueprints like grand trophies, but oblivious to having a helping hand in the past and now bite at that same hand. All it is now is unnecessary bullshit drama that you are directly causing, admittedly in your own post.

Any why not, while we are at it hey @RexXxuS can we get a poll to lock this thread and any subsequent threads on the same dumbass drama?

[Remove]

@Zackey_TNT

What about the rights of the factions not to get their defeats publicly displayed on ECC?

Are you for real? Rights?

[Zackey_TNT]

Thank you for providing a useful perspective I had not yet considered…

/s

[Remove]

But lets ignore that, where do we draw the line? Its not ok to sell your ships but I can build something and sell it. Ok well can I just build a copy? If not, how different does it have to be? What scale would we judge that on? It seems like a pandora’s box of rules to change an existing rule. It also feels like the same people keep trying to make new rules and restrictions in a open sandbox game, a game I play because its a sandbox game.

And Zackey man, when you say things like “rights” in a video game its tough not to be surprised

[Zackey_TNT]

Jack, your faction member used and mentioned the word right, had you read that you would understand why it was mentioned.

As stated before, if you own your own blueprint, you may sell it. If you capture a blueprint, you may study it.

In regards to “the same type of people”, are you referring to the diverse playerbase who are voicing openly that they don’t like the current system? Or are you referring to the 30% votes that come purely from “one side”

All this would change is the ability for combat captured blueprints to be sold. I have already made suggestions about how we might implement such a rule above. Again, had you read through that you might have agreed

[Remove]

-3 Polls, none from HWS
-I did read it, I even searched it, could not find someone using that term other than you in this discussion.
-Your missing my point. I can recreate your BP block for block and sell it as my own? Ok, whats to stop me from copy pasting anyones ship? I am not saying these are things I want to do, playing devils advocate. These are things ANYONE could do. That is functionally selling your BP with 2 extra steps, whats the point of a rule? It would be meaningless
-I did not say same “Type” of people. I said same people.

Also, I have not nor do I plan to sell anyones BP in game/anywhere. I just really don’t like extra pointless restrictions on how we play a game that is supposed to have as few as possible.

Edit: for the 70% different idea see my previous post

[TacoIsland]

Or read mine above.

[Zackey_TNT]

1st - polls aren’t created by HWS, they are created by community looking to give feedback. Changing who posts it doesn’t change what happened. That’s like calling for a re-count on an already finished vote.

2nd - The counter argument presented in favor of keeping the current system is that by removing this feature we are removing the rights of the player, what about the rights of the factions involved? But I see now that I was referring to my own post, not someone elses. Regardless of words, the point was made.

3rd If you recreate my SV, and it’s over 70% the same as the original blueprints, its illegal. You can make a hull and then fit it with different systems, that’s not hard, but realize that it’s fairly obvious what you did. Rules like anything can be circumvented but just having it in place increases overall community security and non-toxicity.

4th - semantics.

5th It’s not pointless if there’s this much support in favor of regulating it. Just because you haven’t done it nor intend to, doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue.

@TacoIsland
If it wasn’t an issue we wouldn’t have to make such arguments, unfortunately when chivalry fails, rules are needed.

[Wiseman738]

Come on fellas, this is becoming a little bit circular.

@Rabid Nothing wrong with having a forum post on this, in fact it’s better as it can lead to a wider discussion. I don’t play anymore therefore i’m not really one way or another, however I do believe that discussion of rules is a good thing. It’s one thing that has helped iron things out in the past.

Moreover having a forum thread with the discussion allows us to quickly link it and get other interested parties involved, as you correctly mentioned this only has a small number of voices, but that could widen with the promotion of this thread as a pluralistic space for multiple points of view.

Ergo, attempting to shut it down in the name of not representing the complete community is premature.

Chief engineer struggled with the timing of the polls, and to me polls aren’t really what’ll decide the outcome but voices.

With referendums such as Brexit as an outcome, I’m very suspicious of people being able to vote WITHOUT justifying themselves, i think too much is lost in discussion that is not had in polls and surveys, whereas our forefathers discussed and argued all the time, they didn’t necessarily vote on the issues but used rhetoric. Both have their own problems, but in this case i’d prefer decisions to be made through our points than through the will of ‘the masses’ so to speak.

Nonetheless a poll is good to see generally where the people are at in their attitude, it’ll be interesting to see if this view is reflected in the wider community.

Now finally, we can stop arguing about polls and get on to the point at hand, the legality of selling claimed BPs and the difficulties of enforcement.

Selling Captured BPs
This is interesting as discussion about this started when Chief accidentally scared Paxxo about selling RED PVP ships, on learning this I immediately spoke to Chief and it turned out that there had been a misunderstanding, no RED ships were sold, I spoke to Paxxo, the issue was resolved.

Now there used to be a PVP ‘Golden Age’ in about 5.0 where SWP (Russian fac prior to RED) and PKA (me) would settle disputes internally, and sort it out amongst ourselves, after 5.0 and after SWP with RED and OPG this became increasingly difficult and more issues had to be exhaustively settled by the Admin.

Nonetheless strangely enough @Paxxo1985 and I came an agreement on this that both sides would not sell one-another’s ships, it is good to see this kind of co-operation working again. And I hope it continues so Rexxus’ time can be wasted less often.

This leads me to my next point, the difficulties of enforcement.

It ultimately adds another layer of oversight to a server admin that is one of the sole individuals responsible for policing the server, now that doesn’t damage the legitimacy of the rule itself, but it does make the practicalities behind it more troublesome.

For this reason it should fall under a specific ‘Convention’, perhaps not quite a set-in-stone rule, but something that is widely frowned upon and if proven will be punished, but that’s just my two cents.

Time to get back to the real world and do some studying ahah.
Best regards all, and a happy new year.
Wise.

Previous thread about this which the issue was raised can be found here: Pvp ships

[_Furious_Hellfire]

when you spawn your bp into hws a unique server, you are spawning a unique bp you never used anywhere else, you are adding and displaying capturable content to the server.

Does not seem right that those particular unique captured ships should not be allowed selling like regular ships, you are adding content to the server by bringing your ship here and you want to wave it around in front of people, look at what ive got, why should they not be allowed to take it and sell it. It is a realistic method, instead players want the ability to magically control the fate of their vessel after they have been killed and someone else now owns it. Sorry but this is utter crap.

If you dont want your designs being used by others, dont bring them here.

You cant bring content to a server that allows people to claim your content and say that this can only ever be for me, this is special because i made it so it cant be sold? screw that secret design policy, like in real world designs are only secret until they are captured, and like in real world you should make a new design…

[_Furious_Hellfire]

Honestly rex you will have to create a hws equivelant of the united nations to enforce any non selling of clan blueprints.

edit:
I would agree that you should get perhaps a limited amount of time to sell a captured blueprint.
After which your only option is to use it keep it stored somewhere or dismantle it.

Even then, players could sell them under the table, that would need policing no doubt.

Perhaps players could have the option to trade that ship in for rp points, they may be less likely to sell it or keep it as a trophy ?

Seems to me that rp points are very sought after in hws by the pro’s.

Not really much else I can contribute to this topic.

There is too much grey areas around the whole topic.

And it seems this is all in aid of protecting secret designs which cannot even be done in the real world lol so yeah.

Do what you gotta do, I am here for the long haul regardless

[Remove]

@Zackey_TNT

1st - polls aren’t created by HWS, they are created by community looking to give feedback. Changing who posts it doesn’t change what happened. That’s like calling for a re-count on an already finished vote.

Like starting 2 new polls because you did not like the results of the 1st one?

@Zackey_TNT

3rd If you recreate my SV, and it’s over 70% the same as the original blueprints, its illegal. You can make a hull and then fit it with different systems, that’s not hard, but realize that it’s fairly obvious what you did. Rules like anything can be circumvented but just having it in place increases overall community security and non-toxicity.

Your missing my point. Its an unenforceable rule that would just create a ton of work for the Rex/Jas/Police. You expect an admin to go through block by block to find that it is more than X% different? What if two ships both ended up very similar by random happening? Does one design get outlawed? It’s lots of work for no benefit

@Zackey_TNT

4th - semantics.

No, those words have a different connotation the way you “quoted” me

And chivalry? If you want to have an honest discussion here keep the white knighting out of it

[Rabid]

To address TacoIsland’s claim that I advertized the ships to humiliate:

Wrong wrong wrong. The ship is advertized as captured intact - I want my buyers to know that the ships hasnt just been re-armored, its actually the ship its supposed to be with all the parts intact.

I drop the names of the factions I stole them from to give due credit to their origins as best I know, because I dont want to represent those ships as my original work, and I want the buyers to know that the ships were actually seen as good ships by the factions that made them

Hence why I advertize that it is their Main faction SV for the season I captured it from.
No hate, no salt, no disrespect.

[dQgnflua]

.

[Zackey_TNT]

1st - The 2 other polls where created by Chief, the 2nd poll still went in the same direction as the 3rd. Regardless, I was not involved in the 1st and 2nd, so why would this be an issue?

2nd - It’s not a lot of work to visually look at two screenshots of identical ships, or near identical ships. As suggested above the onus would be on the factions to provide evidence.

3rd - You have yet to provide anything new to this argument, except demonstrating your obsession with the usage of certain words. White knighting is not at all what I am doing, I was presenting an argument and for you to dismiss it out of hand just because it used a word you don’t like is just garbage.

@Rabid

Doesn’t matter what you intend, it’s not an honor and it’s not interpreted that way. PVP groups don’t ever do things out of the kindness of their hearts, there’s always a motive or benefit to them, and publicity is certainly a side-effect.

[VCross]

Just chiming in with my 2 cents here. I voted to have the whole system removed. I don’t think it adds anything to the game except to create more drama and toxicity. Yes, smack talk is part of PVP but hanging things like a captured ship over your enemies head is just asking to start drama. Losing a ship in PVP and having it captured is one thing, having it put up for sale to anyone who wants to buy it is another all together. It’s intentionally rubbing salt in the wound as it were. Especially if the ship were lost due to being vastly outnumbered or you got disconnected which happens frequently. Now the counter-argument that some have proposed is “Just don’t take it into PVP” to which I respond with, That’s not promoting PVP at all nor is it promoting a healthy PVP atmosphere on the server. It only servers to discourage players from even bothering which is, in turn, going to decrease total PVP on the server. So throwing that argument out there is basically a statement saying, I don’t care if there’s PVP or not. I just want to kill people and have them get salty at me for it.

All that out of the way, if the selling of blueprints is still allowed my proposal is that the seller will alert an admin or one of the moderators or police that they have a ship that they wish to sell. The police/mod/admin will make a post on the forum that X ship is going up for sale along with screenshots of the ship and of the P menu so that the original creators name is clearly displayed. The user/creator of the ship then have 3 days to dispute the sale of the ship and provide proof of ownership. If there is no dispute filed or no proof of ownership given after 3 days then the ship will go up for sale.

Acceptable proof of ownership should be:
-A screenshot of the ships ID number on HWS (either in game or Connect) from the perspective of the user/creator
-A copy of the BP given to the Police/Staff/Admin for review from the user/creator

If proper proof of ownership is given and the owner/creater/user does not wish their BP to be sold the ship will then be deleted.

[Remove]

Again Zackey your lack of imagination is making this very hard.

Lets say I want to copy and sell your ship. I only have to add a block of plastic to it of a size exceeding 30%/70% of the block count. Now it is within your proposed rules to sell. You cant enforce that.

And for the last time, it’s not semantics if your straight up misquote me. You had words in quotes that I did not type. Thats not semantics or obsession with words, its you misquoting me. There is a quote feature that can stop this in the future, I suggest you use it.

White knighting is 100% what your doing. You don’t even PVP, you have no horse in this race, but you try to champion a cause you are attempting to make the “good” cause. But its all subjective. Your trying to take my in game freedom away, I see that as wrong.

And yes, when you start talking about your video game “Rights”, its absolutely ridiculous. Its a video game. Rights in the real world? A real issue.

[Remove]

Also, I think I addressed all your points, I did not “dismiss it out of hand”