With the introduction of shields into the game, it seems to me that a more sinister version of ammo draining is already afoot. Players seem to be using shield mechanics in a similar way to dying. When a base kills a player multiple times in a short duration, in what is an attempt to drain the base’s ammunition, it is considered ammo draining. All it costs the enemy player is RP. I’d argue that with the new shield mechanic, all the player now loses is refined pentaxid, which is actually vastly cheaper in most cases than RP containers, given the amount of ammo drain that is possible.
I’d say that exploiting shield mechanics in this way is the more aggressive version of the already known, drain by death method. I think the HWS rules should encompass this new reality. Thoughts? Has anyone else experienced this?
It’s a bit more difficult to prove, especially if they are offline. In this case it would seem more like a legit tactic, would be no different than the soaker CVs of the past, but Pentax is vastly cheaper than combat blocks.
Using shields as protection is legit @DoktorSchmerz. Thats why they are there, otherwise why have them? I don’t see the exploit here.
The other night i was using a strategy of assaulting your 30 FLN space base/cv cluster with my 1 cv by trying to find angles to see from which side it was weakest (meaning volume of firepower) and to see which side was going to run out of either ammo or pentaxid or both first.
Remember, i’m also using ammo plus pentaxid for shields just like your bases so when i’m attacking them my ammo and pentaxid is also being drained! The disadvantage for you would be if those bases were not being actively defended and managed like making sure it had enough ammo and pentaxid for the shields to regenerate. Which is your problem and your responsibility not mine and its not an exploit. So i wouldn’t call that an “ammo draining exploit” unless your saying that your bases with their shields were also “ammo draining exploiting” my cv?
When i was attacking those bases you were right there in the middle of that 30 space base/cv cluster if i’m not mistaken. So you could have pushed me back if you got off your behind; because i’m not going to stay there if i’m being attacked by a cv or a sv.
There are multiple differences between ammo draining by dying and using shields and pulling back. The first and most obvious one is that retreating when shields are low is a pretty rational tactic. No one can be expected to sit and be shredded when it becomes clear that will be the case. Probing defenses and hit and runs are all part of PvP and would fall into this.
It seems pretty easy to counter as well unlike ammo draining by dying. If someone is dying over and over to drain a base, there is nothing physically in game anyone can do to stop them, which then makes sense why it is such an exploit. However, if someone is trying to ammo drain with shields then anyone could just shred them when their shields go down. Especially since it would have to be recorded to show proof, it would be just as easy to blast them at that point.
Yes, well ABN sent multiple players into the field with no intent on testing, probing, or actually trying to down the target. Their sole intent was to waste our ammo. Which was obvious. I don’t even care about how our base died at the end. GG you guys brought more than it could handle, whatever. But the prelude to that was a week of people specifically trying to drain the ammo dry from the base. I even asked 0z why his guys are ammo draining to which he responded “why wouldn’t our guys be ammo draining?” So the intent there seems pretty clear. I like HWS because it doesn’t allow for garbage tactics that make the game unfun.
Anyone please tell me that you’d be OK if I one manned your base by using a shield soak, waited for it to be dry of ammo then went in and wrecked it up? If you say yes to that then I guess I’ll just be more ruthless and push the grey line.
Your missing the point it seems. If I setup a base in PvP, I fully expect at any time to lose it to any number of players by any kind of tactic. They weren’t respawning continuously, they were using the legit game mechanics (i.e. shields) to drain your ammo from your base. It is no different than continually spawning a new soaker CV to do the same thing in seasons past. Hell I have taken many bases with a midget without a shot fired from the base.
They haven’t done anything illegal or against the HWS rules, its nothing more than an endurance fight and they wore out your ammo stores. If you knew over a weeks time they were slowing draining the ammo why not put more ammo in it?
This has been an ongoing debate for a long time now. We have seen it considered before, but never seen a direct conclusion reached. I would have to agree that it is not an ammo draining tactic. Under a technicality, I was ammo draining you yesterday. I fought 3 of your CV’s with my SV, Dok you where there. You guys spawn killed me more than 10 times. I re spawned at random intervals over a minute after I was spawn killed last, usually over two or three minutes. 15 minutes after I was first killed, I was still being spawn killed by all three if your CV’s. I eventually escaped because the game spawned me far enough away from your CVs for me to cb:gohome. If that is considered ammo draining, then shields should be considered ammo draining as well. Dok, I have personally seen you and many other players wait until their shields where down to 12 percent and then leave to go hide behind a base, HV, or CV. In the orbital fight you tried to hide inside the cluster of bases to let your shields recharge, or on the planet. I have not seen a single player in PvP not even attempt to let their shields recharge during the fight. Oz being the only exception. Even I try to keep my shields up the whole fight, it makes sense. If players consider it unfair to play the game as it was intended, then why are they even plaing the game. It’s just a game, out of ammo? make more. Low on Pentaxid? Go mine more. That is how the game was designed. If it was all shooting people would get bored, there has to be a grind. Don’t want to use ammo or pentaxid? Don’t attack POI’s or enter PvP. However, this brings us all the way back around to micro svs. I have been told by counsel members you guys use micro svs in combat, and I have a screenshot of one of your members flying a micro sv. Does that make you guilty of ammo draining? No, of course not. you aren’t that members. However, does it mean that member of your faction is an ammo drainer? They are flying a ship built only to keep it’s shields up so that other players can shoot at it, but not hit it. In our fight on HomeWorld, everyone from your faction backed off at some point or another to let their shields recharge. Including you, but so did everyone from my side of the fight. (except Oz) Does that mean you used the whole fight to ammo drain us? During the fight, your base kept recharging its shields. I know why, it was trying to ammo drain us. I just don’t see how shields could possibly be considered ammo draining, or if they are to be considered ammo draining, how could anyone stop it? Record it and waste peoples time by reporting everyone who attacks them as “ammo draining” too many people would get away with it. Below I posted a screenshot from Taelyn, an Eleon developer. Taeyln helped develop and improve many aspect of Empyrion Galactic Survival, including shields.
Thanks Will you just inadvertently proved my point. ‘It is not ammo draining when you retreat when you feel you are losing.’ You have to have the intent of winning the battle in order to feel that you are losing. Coming up to an enemy base repeatedly, with no real attempt to destroy the structure, but rather with the intent to drain ammo is the definition of ammo draining. Dying or shields, the intent is what matters. Carefully read, the whole response from the dev.
Though, I applaud the attempt to bias the question to the dev so that they respond in the way you wanted them to.
I’ll keep it short and simple. From what the developer said i would title it an “ammo draining exploit” instead of just “ammo draining” because in reality we all drain eachothers ammo and resources; First we drain eachothers ammo and resources with how we build and design our ships for battle, second with shields that use pentaxid as fuel, third with putting more ammo in our vessels then the opponent, and fourth with how we move and dodge to make our opponent miss.
All these are legit ammo draining tactics except for excessively respawning like over 10 times which the developer mentioned above. This is exploiting the spawning system which is intended to spawn and not as a tactic to drain ammo.
Dok, I am glad I could help. However, if you truly believe that then why did you retreat in this scenario? If I recall correctly, in the fight at your homeworld base you attacked me with your shields up, and retreated when your shields got low. You and another vessel approached me, with a fully functional base behind you, but you still retreated when your shields went down. Where you losing the battle? I don’t believe so you had a fully functional base with 9 HVs protecting it.
I was present for the tank-dropping affair on GG. I can say for certain that the intent was to ammo drain. It also sucked so much because it stripped 95% of the turrets on that side of the base before the enemy’s HVs went down. It cost them no players, no skill, and next to nothing in resources to bring down a base that would otherwise have held off an assault. They simply came in with 20 tanks and set their CV to private, bombs away just like that.
Meanwhile it cost the players defending that base 2 hours of repair time and wasted effort in cleaning up the corpses.
The excuse given for this is often that everything is fair in war, well this is a game and I will say this once and make my stance very clear.
HWS is not rust, if offline raiding and ammo-draining tactics (otherwise known as doggy tactics) become common place here, I will not be participating in PvP.
Thanks for starting this thread, I understand your point a little better than I did on discord yesterday.
Doesn’t this method of draining a base dry of ammo take a lot of time? Like way more time than it would take someone to respond to the pings and defend their base?
Defending a base should have a cost. The cost to make it and the cost to keep it maintained and repaired. This ensures that the advantage that having a base gives in a fight is offset by the cost of creating and keeping it.
These 2 sentences seem to contradict each other. How can it be an ammo drain attack if it was directly dealing damage and also ended up destroying the vehicles? Isn’t that what fighting is?
I’m a little more sympathetic to tank dropping being changed because there is no pilot but its offset by core limits and the fact that bases come with land claims. A base can’t be unbeatable or super OP for the defenders, attackers have to have options to defeat them, right?
You clearly don’t understand the argument. When I retreated, my intent was to kill you, not waste your ammo. There is a difference. Go re-read Will.
For the record, I like shields, I think they are an important development in the game. But yes, if need be, they should be removed if we somehow cannot seem to understand what is and isn’t across the line. Also, like Zackey said, I only play Empyrion on HWS, and I only play on HWS because there are additional rules about fairplay in PvP. If HWS becomes full of toxic ammo drainers, I think it is safe to say that the PvP aspect of HWS will die. Which is lame.
Bases are strongholds which should be central points for pvp activity. That has always been their role. Tank drops instantly remove any challenge in taking bases. If you where there during the assault you would have seen a different side to the entire affair.
I ask you this: What is the point in holding a pvp asset when some noob with shield HVs can drop 20 of them and completely and utterly obliterate those bases with no risk or method of retaliation.
This in combination with offline raiding makes it a pointless endevor to hold any point. Hence why there is currently NO NA GG bases as both sides realize an offline raid + tank drop = lost objective.
You where also not in charge of repairs or dealing with the aftermath. The ultimate reason PVP has died down on HWS NA is basically down to what I’ve said above. It’s a sad reality in which we’ve collectively shot ourselves in the foot by being so competitive, it’s become toxic.