So first off, yes I know this would be wholely on Eleon’s shoulders, but it should be possible with the tools they have available.
So: the problem(s).
Bases cannot defend themselves without anti-grief range, offline protection, and loads of effort.
Bases are completely invincible with the current version of anti grief ( Core + generator and fuel underground: boom the base cannot be killed)
Players that are allied cannot build near each other, even if both parties want to.
Ships destroyed on a POI or near an enemy base cannot be repaired, scrapped, or rebuilt as long as they are within anti grief range.
The solution to all these problems:
An Anti-Grief Device. The AG device would function on similar rules to the OP device, but will work online and offline. But with one exception, the anti grief device CANNOT function below the dirt level. This means that at the very least, that one device must be above the ground, and theoretically vulnerable. Once it is destroyed, tunneling, multitooling, building, anything can occur next to the base in order to root out the rest of the devices. If the defender wants to prevent destruction, they must defend these devices.
Any thoughts?
edit
Thanks Rex for the formatting help.
The additional points I wanted to say would be that
A defender could selectively turn off the device to allow allied building/digging.
Each device could possibly have a set range, so in order to cover a sprawling base, you would have to maintain a field of protection of sorts, multiple overlapping fields.
All existing POI would have to be edited so that it contained one of these devices in order to have their intended anti grief range.
I love the idea, let me take it a bit further maybe…
Lets say, that cores don’t make a structure invulnerable to multitooling anymore, but its the role or the antigrief device.
Given that cores can’t be targetted anymore, it will still be a hassle to find a core underground even after taking out the AG device… what if you don’t have to?
What if every structure had its option of having an antigrief device, and without it, the structure was able to be multitooled even when hostile or modified by allies?
How would it work?
The core decide of the allegiance of the structure, but the AG device decides if when it come to modifications the game sees the structure as public or private.
CV/SV/HV AG devices would have a range of “self”, only applying to the blocks of the structure, while bases would deploy an AG field of given radius.
CV AG device - 1x2x1 blocks. 2 tonnes, ulockable at lvl 5, no advanced mats
SV/HV AG device - 1x1x1 blocks. 50 kg, unlockable at lvl 3, no advanced mats
BA AG device - 2x2x2 or 3x3x3 (or use the “radar” deco entity?) 2 tonnes, unloced by default, no advanced mats,
The idea is not a bad one but you exaggerate the strength of bases in the game today. If you break down the outside defenses then you are in. There is not much more I could do to hold you off unless you can not fight without your ships. I have 8 of those little turrets that go down fast to hold you off. If there is more than one attacker well that is not hard to get through. One attacker would have to be more careful but still could get it done. Now if you could get your ship all the way into my base well there you go I have no recourse as those turrets would go down one hit by a SV rocket.
Bases were weakened due to cheaters that buried turrets. I never saw that as any fun. I use to enjoy setting up close quarter gantlet for any would be invaders. Now that can not happen. So now those same SV you use to easily take out POI can be used against me. I have very little that can stop one of those. Bring in more than one at once and I am done.
I am guessing HWS requires that your core is attached to your base? Not buried deep in the earth away from everything? If that is so then taking the base is possible but the work does not end at killing me. That is as it should be. Also why should you be able to take the base from me? Why not come in kill me take what you can carry and leave? The I can rebuild resupply and continue to play. This need to wipe someone out completely is the reason so many Do NOT want anything to do with PVP. Perhaps bases should not be able to be taken by the enemy. Perhaps what is really needed is a limit you can loot but can not take. Destroy as much as you want. At the end of the day though should be able to make sure you can not get it all.
Just my 2 cents as though the OP has a good idea all it does is open up more issue but really is not balancing anything. Remember as the attacker of a base you have the strong advantage. You can repair faster. You can resupply faster. You can replace ships and guns faster. Me in the base I am cut off from most all supplies. That is my one big weakness. Also the fact that I dont have the option to withdraw I am stuck in a fight until you the attacker decides to leave.
There is no rule against modular building the core away from the main structure, but again I think there is a miscommunication here. Currently, You can blow up all the turrets you want, but the base will remain, as long as it’s parts are page downed below the terrain, and that terrain is protected by anti grief. If it were a matter of work yet to be done, that is fine. And that is what I am proposing. But currently, you cannot go under ground to GET that core. It is for all intents and purposed invincible.
The reason for this is simple. Counter argument to drive it home: Wars are fought throughout history over land. Why should your base be allowed to remain after it is defeated, perpetually preventing anyone from capturing the terrain? Currently, there is no need to defend anymore at all. Just push a production facility underground, and p menu into it from a single block on the surface.Most anyone can do is blow up that one block, then you dig down, reconnect with modular build, and place 10 more, for the cost of 10 blocks. It is severely unbalanced, and kills land battles.
Well not that bad idea. But its again Eleon who has to fix it and their unability to fix anything is becoming famous already.
For me it would be enough if only faction structures could be OPed. GG is full of towers, might be REDs or SWPs…who knows, no way how to see owner, all i can see is red name, no tag, nothing.
Private BAs protecting faction BAs thats just a sick joke for me.
Some diplomacy could help when allies suffers because of AG, not that joke we got after months of begging.
And for god sake somebody nuke that Alliance HQ…
Well i wanted to be constructive but since release this game never was bigger trash.
Lets hope NPC crew will improve whole situation.
@A.F.T Prediction of Nostrodamus in real. Well allow me to predict something…motorbike will never behave as motorbike in Empyrion.
I kinda like it mcprouty, but why new device? OP should create VISIBLE shield and AG field when owner FACTION (no private OP) is offline, and AG field when they are online. Destroy OP, destroy AG zone. OP must be above initial terrain to work. Eleon is good in displaying barriers so maybe option to turn on visible AG zone in debug menu.
Might be good if theres something like OP is still active for 5 minutes when 1 member comes online to prevent something like storming base before owner finishes coffe or so.
The idea was that a cv should not have an anti grief range. As a separate device, it could be for bases only. Though I suppose they could act like the repair bays and have a version just for base, and a version for cv.
I see of course CVs shouldnt have that, so maybe CV OP and BA OP, i dig what you saying. Im just glad im not the only one who noticed this is seriously messed up. I moved to San, not going to play this comedy, while you are able to stay constructive Im not.
Good job, decent idea.
I think OP is xxx***xx - not got. And devs need add new device. Main base OP. - Only one device per player. To defend only one base (home with resourses). And for prevent building around OP base - add delay to shooting turrets (if enemy structure stay more then 30 minutes near the base under the OP only then it start shooting).
P.S. But totaly - IMHO - remove OP. Make base - real base! More BIG and powerfull turrets with more range for it Some beam powerfull weapons (hit itstantly like a miniguns). More HP for doors and hangar doors (add forcefields). More variants of the interrior defence (turrets) more HP for IT. Make combat base more expensive but more strong.
IDK but good base in Space Engineers - it is madness for a enemy. Turrets work well there. But someone like build surface bases and then cry - when orbital bomber smash it. But in Empyrion we do not have orbital bomber - so we need just more efficient turrets. And some protection against mud drillers.
See you got me there because to me a base is something you the owner can go into. Could solve that by taking away the ability to get into boxes and constructors without going to them. This means if you bury them they are useless. To me if I bury all of my base but one block to access everything in the CP that is cheating. That is not the intention of the mechanics. I guess guys like me that dont exploit or cheat dont think that way either. Just like I dont bury turrets but I might use terrain to cover their base part.
As for some device to deal with Anti Grief that just seems like more of a issue than worth. Example. I destroy your anti grief device setup some towers after taking out your turrets. Set my own devices up as well. Now what I can log out. In 20 min OP comes on. Your base is surrounded you can not build you can not leave. You can not play the game until I come back online. If I do it in a faction then leave that faction you can no longer play the game. So not the anti griefing device just got used for griefing.
Think guys I dont think like that and I came up with that real fast. You are trying to balance the game with more devices and rules. How about thinking about playing the game fairly without greifing people. Dont bury your crap where no one can get it. Play the game as its intended or receive a Ban from all MP servers for the game. I think that would be a better way if needed to deal with the situation then adding more crap in the game for people to exploit.
As for taking my base, lets face it you are not moving in most times. You just dont want me to have it. Also this is not war its a game. Do we want more people playing the game and to PVP with? Or would you rather make people start all over and that cause them to loose interest in the server/game or just in PVP? Sometimes a penny a day could add up to more than a million dollar check handed to you right now.
You should all know I suck at PVP but I am in it for fun. I dont win Ship to Ship and I know it. To me bases are easy to defend but I do not bury things. Everything in any base I build can be gotten to with C4 or multitool. That is how everyone should be forced to play. So I am thinking that better solution for bases being buried is to make it so there is a purpose in going to the core maybe every time you sign in there or something. As well as having to go to your boxes and constructors. Even if you leave out the part about the core at least the other means you can Raid the base instead of taking it all just to leave it behind knowing that the owner cant have it.
Sorry nothing you can say that will convince me that PVP should always be about taking everything the other guy has and the base just because you have the superior numbers or designs. Lets face it there is little skill in combat with this game. You either have better numbers or better design.
Yes but in SE you could take my hangar but that does not give you access to my lower level. To take a base there you have to do it one piece at a time. There is no one core ends it all for you.
Then there is the part where in Empyrion all you do is flip your ship upside down and you can see through the ground and locate the core. Now you know just where to shoot. Or you find the generators and shoot them. Friend showed me that exploit long ago. Likely led to wanting to dig to a base core instead of fighting. Sorry but if you need to dig in order to take my base you are a coward. Unless of course I am the coward that buries everything so even I can not get to it. In the end underground bases will be banned by game mechanics all together. And then those that play fair will suffer again for the cowards that exploit and cheat their way to claiming victory.
You are forgetting a few things. A: Offline protection on MY base. The beginning to this scenario implies that I am afk in my base? Or that it does not have Offline protection. But here is the thing: you always have the option to spawn at starter. If I log off in an undefended or about to die base, I shouldn’t just magically be safe when I log back in. There should be consequences. Those consequences dont mean I cannot play, just that I use my home spawn, if I remembered to use it, try and respawn and hide until backup arrives, or spawn back at start.
And I would argue that since they have had the p menu accessible from anywhere on the structure for a very long time, that it is a seriously flawed argument that doing so is exploiting or cheating. If they put in conveyor systems like in space engineers, we will use that, and the method we have now would be ridiculous.
Honestly the more I read and respond to this post the more I see it as insulting and needlessly inflammatory, so I am gonna end this here.
Yes one would say that 2 years are long enough to do something with weapons. Introduce something else than fire straight ahead weapons. Something capable of shooting behind hill like…ummm maybe artilerry shell should fall down after some time
Agree with if Bas will at least fight back i wont mind loosing it that much if ill know that enemy lost something too during offline raiding or had to withdraw.
I liked idea of OP increasing dmg of weapons so base become deadly, but without proper weaponery its useless. AI fighter squadron would help too, but thats all fairy tales.
So I just did some testing, put all hitscan weapons on platform, put my class 1 SV in front and after 10 minutes of taking dmg i just switched game of. (its 18 BAs turrets)
So i suggest start with weapons and then start thinking about OP. Its just insane. Completly.
So courtesy of our good buddy Ranzeth’s backpack last night, we found out that when Eleon patched it so that explosives cannot penetrate ground inside anti-grief, they did not include handheld explosives in that rule (not sure if it was intentional or not). A fact ACP has apparently been keeping to themselves since they learned of it. No matter, atleast the information is out there now. Bases are not COMPLETELY invincible, as long as this odd exception exists. Downside, griefing can still occur on pve, as long as someone brings an inventory full of beepers.
