@RexXxuS
So, I’ve seen the recent patch notes - you can’t use explosives to destroy terrain in Anti-Grief zones. This now means you cannot destroy the terrain around a base with anything - rockets, plasma, explosives… nothing.
The consequences - You create a base and place all the valuables underground, as well as the core. Enemy shows up, destroys your turrets… and then leaves because he can’t core your base and get any loot from it. Base PvP = pointless now.
CV PvP - Build a semi-decent CV, get in a fight, lose a lot of turrets and then … warp out.
SV Combat - Build large SVs that are 3k+ blocks, use dummy guns and just shoot homing rockets at each other a bunch until someone disconnects, runs out of ammo or just gets bored and leaves.
The only PvP that seems to be left is if you attack newbie players who don’t know how to protect their warp drive correctly, or to place their constructers, core and cargo boxes underground. So, the only way for ‘pirates’ to get loot is to attack newbie players? That doesn’t make sense, as it will turn away the new player base, but what other choice do they have as they can’t get loot anywhere else.
Even if you were to have a really large ‘war’ where people fight to the death, the worse case scenario is they lose some ships. If those ships are destroyed in the anti-build zone, the enemy won’t even be able to scrap them. The loser of the fight loses all of his turrets and then just has to wait for his enemy to go away and rebuild again - all valuables are safe.
We need changes to PvP:
Blocks/bases cannot be put under terrain, or get rid of the anti-grief zone, and extend Offline protection in an extended cube around the base to prevent digging.
Put some form of ‘warp’ blocking mechanic in the game, or put core targeting back in.
Place a feature that allows players to take over undefended cores in PvP - example: base, sv, cv, hv has no power so a player can simply hack the structure and take it over.
Get rid of the Sanctuary Server - While it’s a great idea in concept, it’s allowing a lot of the veteran players go and mine unmolested, which is great as they can build up a bunch of resources… but what’s the point if they aren’t engaged in the main servers on a daily basis?
Remove all PvE warp points from Black Hole, PvE playfields should be 2-3 warps from Blackhole.
Summary
There needs to be ‘real’ consequences to living and playing in PvP. In the current state of the game, as long as you know how to build above a novice level and use some caution you will almost never die in PvP if you run right away or even if you fight for a little while. At the current state of the game, the only real consequence to PvP is if you choose to die or are you are a newbie to the game.
thanks for your feedback and I’m not blind and know this.
As already said there is a gap now where Anti Grief is perfect now but is in conflict with some PvP aspects.
While we can turn of Anti Grief in PvP it would mean that
a) Noobs don’t know how to defend properly with their OP
b) Noobs will be base camped around their OP and will die dramatically as soon as they log in
c) ^ That applies not only for Noobs and causes in history already massive of drama and was the main reason why we shut down OP at all.
We can try it since turrets are shooting now while OP is on but I smell drama around the corner.
d) A big drama was caused by moles, trying to dig under neath your base where you have no protection and turrets are not shooting now there. How you wanna defend that spot?
Neither of this is possible at the moment.
The hack idea is cool. Need to ask @Jascha if we can get these information properly like “no energy” etc.
Even though more and more people enjoying Sanctuary it is still not profitable and still planned to shut down at the next season. Don’t know though if we should rush it “now” or it can wait until later.
There is no PvE orbit connection from Black Hole. Every near orbit is PvP.
Yes, PvP “should” be cruel but noobs, no matter how you try to put it nicely will always suffer and even if all your points are “fixed” noobs, will still get shot while warping etc.
And PvP with “no limits” as we saw in the “best version HWS 4” was always a big drama queen moment.
I mean sure, we can go the chaos road but I will actively ignore any drama which will arise from that.
Seems like there is still way how to destroy stuff under terrain, including core, this times are hard for PvP indeed.
Sadly im not 100% sure how its done and Im a bit tired of hours of testing and looking for “how to do” what i see on GG.
About this whole OP…most important is that reason why some called for some kind of “how to protect base when i go to sleep” wasnt adressed at all.
Nobody would mind loosing base over night if theres enough wreckeges of attackers around in morning, but BAs are defensless when there are no players around. This was a problem we needed to solve.
Sniping over the hill
SV i fly was basicly build for this, its the one you see RED flying in, It was meant to be like Scorpion, with guns on tail shooting over hill. With help of camera (page up/Down) and rails its easy to kill any base unless its on flat terrain
Sniping on flat terrain
Help yourself and create your own barriers and snipe again as in 1.
None of this addressed.
BA vs BA
SPaawn BA in artilery range, offer notmaned BA some target and take out its arties with your arties. Take out rest of turrets, take the base.
None of this was addressed.
Absolutly useles turrets on BA.
I put my SV in front of 6 miniguns, 6 connons, 6 laser turrets. After 10 minutes of making coffe etc i returned to PC and moved away in it still flying pretty well. On server its little different because of minigun bug.
Only weapon on BA which can hit flying SV is homing rocket. Rest will never hit SV doing simple barrel roll.
None of this was adressed
etc…
So we are solving here AG and OP while real problem is still absolutly untouched in game.
I agree with the above posts. I would also add that I believe the size of the universe at this stage is too large. I have few to no random encounters in PvP anymore.
I am freelancer but I try to live only from my OAM and capturing/looting enemy structures (ie no mining). This is becoming increasingly difficult due to the issues raised by both Elfias and Ranzeth (aswell as fewer random encounters).
Yes we have a base box at bedrock since week 1 this version which has much damage on its top. Unsure of the mechanic which is failing and causing this.
Devs start braking the PVP from 3.0 and they have good progress in this matter. Well done. And all guys hwo like some PVP may say thankyou - for SP noobs who piss into the DEVS ears. No one major PVP bug do not fiexd from alpha 2. And with every new alpha we have new bugs. Like : not shooting SV in the space, self-destructed SV after spawn, reloading bug (when ammo dissapear) duping SV\CV, ghost SV\CV, Integrity not working, collision bugs, docking bugs, damage not does true when server lags. Trash BA (it can defend itself against SV with 1,5k blocks) and etc. Weapon limits - lol. Maybe they need make it more simple? Class 1 = 10 turrets class 2 - 20 and etc. Now we have 50k blocks Titan with 34 turrets (only 4-8 of it valuable) and tiny flying stick with the same turrets count.
P.S. Ba need new weapons. Heavy missile (SAM) turret - replace the arty and make it homing. Replace pulse laser turrets for a beam lasers with good tracking and damage. Add railgun BA turrets. Powerfull longrange and deadly. CUT! i say AGAIN - CUT the turrets range when it controlled by player. We asking that in 5.0 and even shoot video for the devs. And we need deployment timer. You spawn a new base with turrets to kill enemy base? The donut hole for you! BA need 5 or 10 nminutes to go online, (for example if it BA have some powerfull turrets like new rails of heavy SAM missiles) You place turrets by drone from some distance from you base to kill enemy BA? Again donut hole in all you holes. Whait 5-10 minutes. (enemy BA kill all you turrets in 5 mins)
Awesome how nobody is reading my post bringing you more insights than your generic “everything is shit, bablabla” hater train posts.
But well well: here is the deal:
We can turn of Anti Grief with the next restart on all PvP playfields. That means basically Chaos again (read my post above).
So your mimimi posts now about “broken PvP” etc. will be “solved”. But maybe you will realize that we had already mimimi posts about “broken PvP” where people dig under your structures and you couldn’t defend.
Now you come on with “rules”.
Yeah, rules as last time. And how many played by these “no-digging” rule? Nobody.
But I’m the idiot running around and solving dramas.
I’m honest to you guys: I have so many ideas to improve HWS Connect like crazy, improving the gameplay for everyone, helping beginner with better how-tos, doing finally more cool events etc. etc.
But all the time Im struggling with ingame dramas. It’s like you put big damn chains on a Jet Fighter.
I can’t go on like this.
So 1. Empyrion was never meant to be a PvP game. 2. HWS is to be honest the only server who still pushing PvP non-stop. But at what cost?
So I ask you one more time: should we unleash the PvP beast “deal with PvP with almost no rules” or not?
It’s no rush, Eleon needs to do other things at the moment for the X-mas sale even though a new Anti Grief thing is coming. I don’t know yet.
It’s about some principles here.
Seems to me that it would be simple to try to fix this issue of burying bases like cowards. If an admin can not put on god mode and get to the core by going through only blocks and doors then the base is deleted and the owner banned for a time. Give 24hr to comply from start of rule. If an attacker sees that this is the case after they knock down the turrets well you can get video by flipping over. There you go.
This is how you fix the issue without punishing the entire community. Where I agree PVP base raiding needs to be possible the above suggestions only punish those that play fair as intended. You can not turn off anti grief and allow digging again if my turrets can not defend my base underground. That would be going from one extreme to another. Turn off OFP and think of how many are going to leave as soon as they realize that people can take their base without effort.
Not allowing bases underground? Sure great idea. Only not because then again punishment for the players that do play fair. Cheaters will find other ways to cheat. Besides if the core has to be on the surface then all you have to do is keep hitting the base you will eventually knock out fuel Generator or Core then the base is over. Better a surface only base would fall in under 10 minutes. Again one extreme to another. Sure some PVPers that live out of a CV could care less as it dont effect them. One reason to bury a base to begin with is that you can flip over any ship and figure out where to hit. Plus with no turrets allowed underground once the outside falls you are pretty much done for. Well unless you play it smart.
Sometimes the most obvious solutions are not the best. Sure this would be more work for admin and that would suck. Perhaps then give 48 hr to comply and permanent ban or full character wipe are in order. Then those offenders may think twice. Or any of these underground bases admin just goes over and raises it to be access via the surface after the rule has circulated. Anything is better than punishing those that do not cheat. Eleon did this I hate the idea of HWS doing the same.
Hey Rex cant speak for others but I understand where you are coming from. My idea above adds to your stress yes but perhaps my idea can be a seed to some sort of resolution. Maybe the rule needs to have the harsh punishment and yeah there is going to be a person/group that tests it. They become the example. So Eleon what they need to hard code into the game. So that it is not possible to have a base just fully buried in the ground. I dont have all the answers but most people just want to turn off these things that tried to keep the game fair. Nothing is perfect can only do your best to make it playable.
Hey Rex don’t take this discussion as a personal attack. It’s a discussion and remember all pvpers are douche bags including myself. We come off strong sometimes but most of it is directed at eleon.
I think all what was said here was pretty constructive. I also think that you are right in many things you said, not in all Rexxx. I think Raven is also right with what he just wrote.
I think you have enough and I think that I enjoyed golden time of Empyrion enough thanks to you and for that im greatfull.
Ill reather leave all this and keep good memories before ill get trigered and everything will be spoiled.
Hmm ok what about as a start if AG only turns on once offline protection switches on, if someone is digging under your base while you are online then you can still defend against that and so on, when offline protection triggers then the radius of AG needs to be further than a BA’s Arty range, then the only place bases can be placed around an offline protected structure wont be close enough to shoot once those players log on again, 1 problem solved, then since you don’t have to worry about that, Guns don’t need to fire while offline protection is on, which stops people exploiting with offline protected towers. Other than that indestructible terrain on GG would stop people from dc’ing all the time. (Idea’s by Ragnar)
Only problem with this setup would be that enemies can spawn a ba right next to your base while your online, but that’s a lot more managable as players could still defend against that with good defence tactics.
The problem with noob’s not being able to defend their base can be handled with good tutorials and guides as long as they can find their way to them xD
And I agree with A.F.T. that 5-10min power up time for BA guns would sort out a lot of problems, all Ba guns need better tracking and need to out range HV arty (even manual fire), if all BA guns hit then the dps is fine as is, would be nice if homing missiles where removed from SV’s thou as that takes away a lot of piloting skill and would be nice if SV guns would track better but not perfectly for SV vs SV fight but yea this is all Eleon side T_T.
Thank you, I appreciate your feedback. I also want to clarify none of this is an attack on you, nor are we saying you are doing a bad job.
Most of the issues could be solved by Eleon taking a few more minutes when implementing new ideas for PvP. Based on reading the comments from our fellow PvPers there needs to be an overhaul in PvP.
In the meantime, while we wait for Eleon to figure their stuff out we need to brainstorm.
Here is my first suggestion Rex, if you could bring it up to Eleon:
Allow explosive charges in Anti-Grief zones. They take 5 seconds to go off, and stacking doesn’t help that much. You also have to be on foot to apply them, so they make for the perfect thing to use when inside of ‘Anti-Grief’ zone. I realize this isn’t a simple fix, but it’s a necessary one.
Move the Penthouse/RP planets to a different playfield. Since all you need to do is warp to their playfield and land on the PvE planet to get away from an enemy.
Make warp points less randomized (can we do that?) it would be great if the warp point that all ships land in changes every 160 - 180 seconds. This way if an enemy warps out, and I warp out right after him we land pretty much next to each other.
This gives me or my opponent a second chance at taking me out. Sure, I might just warp again but if he’s going to be warping in more or less right after me then it’s going to take some effort for me to get to the nearest PvE playfield if I’m not properly prepared.
Class Sizes
I think we need to tie the amount/type of weapons on a vehicle to class size.
Why? Well Op4 flies around with SVs that have 8 - 12 mounted weapons. Only 4 are meant to fire, the other 4 - 8 are used as decoys behind a bunch of hardened steel and draw fire from the live ones. (It’s a valid tactic, not judging you guys for using it)
This allows them to easily snipe out turrets, because even if they do mess up a bit they can still tank a base realtively easily - but if putting more than 4 weapons jumps you up to Class Size 2 then they won’t be able to fly them around on GG/sniping will become increasingly difficult for them. I realize I’m picking on Op4 here, but that’s because they are the only ones who have really fought well on planetside.
I would also suggest looking at the number of blocks allowed on a Class 1 SV, if you build them right you can have a 5k block SV, and well some of those things are pretty massive and shouldn’t be Class 1 at all.
We haven’t been placing weapons on SVs behind blocks since 6.0 when Rex clarified that if they can’t shoot through blocks it’s not allowed. AFAIK nobody in Op4 is using that tactic. As for the class sizes, class 1 SV fights do take forever, and a reduction won’t really affect me either, the main SV I use is already class 1. It would make more sense as already mentioned to tie OP and AG, instead of constant AG whether the owner is online or offline. Making grief for others is what PvP is about, and eleon needs to take into account the PvP aspect of their game, otherwise it will be nothing but clans doing POIs and mining, collecting corn dogs and flying workshop ships. What’s the challenge then? Who can build the larger garden? Finding an NPC that was kidnapped by the evil aliens? Might have more fun sticking my testicles ina vice. Not an attack on you Rex, but we are almost certain you have Eleon’s ear, and can be our voice of reason.
I captured a BP of an OP4 clan member, that’s why I said it, nothing against you personally Taco. They do need to increase the velocity of all weapons, except gatling and homing.
I do have a gatling gun in the front of my sv to draw fire but place this on its side so it can’t fire “thought this was ok as it can’t shoot” if this is clarified as not allowed then I will remove them.
And yep I have loads of non-used guns on hard points to draw fire “on the outside” protecting the main weapon systems. This is not cheating just good design “thinking outside the box”
I want to ask guys if we all enjoy that BA to BA combat, its pretty intensive thats what i like as if you dont react and take them down you are done. With BA cost now its maybe too intensive as we can spam one after another and its intensive so much that i fallen asleep behing computer yeasterday after one week on GG.
Also i noticed new COlin to say that 10 BAs firing is no good, with that i agree, also i would add that lag is unbearable after spawning a lot of attack bases, which is followed by a lot of defense bases. Those situations when i place blocks to repair ship and looking at that place for minute waiting for them to appear…its no good.
Now thats related to AG Zone, maybe we dont want to be able to spawn BAs so close, but we want to be able to dig pretty close, mine pretty close, spawn drone pretty close and put stuff on our vehicles liek new turrets.
Is it bad idea to separate these zones?
AD Zone - Anti Digging Zone
prevents digging in close vicinity to BA. I think all that drama around digging is not necessary, all of us have combat diggers, when we see enemy incoming under ground pretty huge HV start to dig under ground to face it, creating large enough tunnel for army to go under ground eliminate threat. But when theres noone around and someone digs under thats not nice, also undermining PvE BAs etc. But when it comes to deposites they should be controled by firepower, not by spawning shitty BA and that creates AG zone and its done. THis zone is much smaller and prevents just this undermining.
AB Zone - Anti Building Zone - its zone which prevents spawning enemy BAs in middle of base. Now this is to be considered…if this is larger than BA range BA vs BA combat is done, im not sure if thats good or bad thing, good for sure up to some degree, maybe limiting us to less BAs is better idea or some combination of both.
Maybe less warnings if over limit and deleteing instead of confiscation by HWS for BAs would help. Its hard to keep track of SVs/HVs in battle, their class goes up too. Wreckages all over, some with core and you over limit soon, of course can be switchd to public but…Keeping track of BAs is much less complicated so punishment for going over limit can be more lethal, also HWS BAs also creates AG Zone afaik.
Maybe its good idea to put us back to build base far enough for that to be just base with repair, productin, spawning etc, and from this base we would have to fly, go on foot or whatever to attack enemy BAs created from less BAs. I think this would make BAs harder to kill and easier to defend…and less lag. Of course its also for defender, they will have harder time to wipe out attackers foothold.
No pushing into AB Zone is pretty important here, this is basicly ZOne of territory control.
Last think…maybe only large enough BAs should cast this zone, base starter under ground seems to me like not large enough to prevent from building, huge BA with guns is different.
Drone, replacing of components, coring of wreckages etc is possible everywhere, no zone is blocking that.
About OP im not sure, yeasterday we logged of aftter being online from morning, without food, ran out of ciggarets, i had to pee in bottle I was drinking from, combat was so intensive i had no time for anything else. So without OP Im forced to fight or say goodbye to base. RED knows that too as they are also forced to battle into late night and then they have to wake up to work etc…
So up to some point its definetly good we have it.
I would like to know what players like @A.F.T or @GEEKsogen (whole RED) things about this.
I disagree, the size of the universe is perfect, although perhaps some of the systems could be utilised a little better. Like i would like to see an EU-server-side hotspot for magnesium, maybe in space…that way it would reduce overuse/reliance of CSW as well as CSW issues when new players need MAG and risk soul and posession by doing CSW.
I think if you were to reduce the universe size you would be trying to force HWS to solve an Eleon problem. In fact i’d say most of us are hitting the wrong forums here. We need to take these issues to the camel’s mouth .We need to hit up the Eleon forums and let them know how it’s going. With Video evidence too also.
Best regards
Wise.
PS: For me the biggest issue is how severely underpowered Bases and CVs are in combat. As it seems that the damage calculator just outright gives up in the heat of laggy combat.
For example i fired three CV arty rounds to destroy ONE combat steel block in laggy combat.
Whilst in non-laggy combat i can take out about five or 6 combat steel blocks with a single CV arty shot.
