So lets pretend you are getting the base 1.5 mil per day from EB 5. So 19x that 27 million per day. While I am saying that EB is ‘PART’ of the problem, I would say players earning 27 million credits per day the problem.
Here are a list of things that could/should be reduced:
Daily voting
Daily connect
Trading missions
RP gain
Gold Asteroids
Gold Crust (maybe just have like 2-3 red zones and no ninja minable crust)
EB bank (I love the system but we may need to look at a minor nerf to it)
Things that need a boost
OAM’s
PVP auto miner planets that rotate PVP/PVE like Armageddon did in 7.5x, 8.0, 8.5?
BASIC planets that can AM basic ORE’s and make players PVP warp to some of the ‘Medium’ rarity ones (Neo, Cobalt, Mag?)
AM T2’s or T3’s or even just T1’s so everyone can get a few thousand ores per day without hardcore mining.
These are just suggestions of things that would help the economy and get prices back to reasonable levels they are just meant as suggestions and I don’t mind more feedback or more ideas.
What prices are off right now and are they too high or too low? By most of the pricing guides I’ve been going by prices are too low.
Why is $27M/day too high? What’s your thinking?
Edit: from what I can tell the market is over supplied on many items, mostly what could be pulled out of deconstructing npc packages. This is why prices are low. Things that are hard to get from deconstructing like copper are scarce.
All three of those are higher than the base reward of mining actual gold. I do not support a dramatic change of anything but a small boost with a small nerf might be all it takes to correct the course. Also I think of the changes I listed the community could vote on what they like/dislike.
Because that is hyper inflation. Season 6.0/6.5 most players made less than a million per day even the elites where not making huge gains (aside from the bankers who broke the banking system) Even by 7.0/7.5 only a few factions would be able to hold GG and mine more than 5 million a day and then we had to spend a lot of that on Ores to keep fighting (keeping the economy going by buying consumable products and putting money in the system). Then 8.0 came around and I admit I was part of the problem making the raider MK3 with 21 HV laser drills allowing players to mine 25Mil+ and forming mega factions that dominated GG so no more fighting. But even THAT wasn’t enough to break the economy. Why? Because HW had a rainbow crust that could be mined at great speed providing all the resources we wanted. It was still balanced even though numbers had dramatically inflated. Then the bank rework Mark 3 came out increasing the average person’s interest, and HWS voting, HWS connect rework, and NPC trading. Along with an increase in the cost of ammo, increased HP (shields) of ships so even more ammo is needed and a new ‘anti ammo’ Pent is needed in great amounts. Yet, homeworld has less resource crust than it did in 7.5/7.5x/8.0 etc. To best answer your loaded question as to why 27mil is to much I suppose it isn’t IF raw materials had come in the same amount of increase rather than stagnate and slightly decrease. Along with an increased demand due to needed more to outfit the same ships/bases/HV’s (they do require a lot more than they did in every season pre 8.0). This is the result.
Yes i remember those days. However, i get the impression that this thread is more about making changes based on players feelings rather then what needs to be done to balance out the economy and to help curb inflation. Its like no don’t touch our unrealistic paradise economy. Its like they don’t even want to consider touching EB bank, Daily voting, Daily connect, Trading missions, RP gain, Gold Asteroids, Gold Crust. If your not even willing to be prepared to make any of these changes then why even have this thread?
As you mentioned Chap and as Rexx has been telling us the economy needs a big fix and soon. And the main problem is inflation which has to do with the current modal of economy that we have. But like Chap has mentioned these below need to be reduced. Their inflating the system:
I don’t think the deconstructors are the problem. Its getting something out of nothing thats the problem. LIke getting credits from nothing. With a deconstructor you’v got to do a decent amount of labor; like getting all these materials, moving it around, storing it, getting it, putting it in the deconstructor, using up your base fuel to keep it running, a waiting period of hours, days, and weeks to get the deconstructions done, and if your buying the materials for deconstruction from HWS Market your helping to deflate instead of inflate the current credits in circulation on the market. Because the sellers in HWS Market get only half the credits you spent on the packages. The other half is taken out of circulations. Also, reputation is used to buy so its being deflated in its entirety not just half.
But with these credits out of nothing its just about Eb:interest and here you go sir 1.5 million out of thin air no labor required thanks and come again tomorrow for credits out of thin air.
If you haven’t already, don’t forget the time cost involved in manufacturing. Part of the reason why NPC trader packs need to be evaluated dynamically is due to the fact that sitting around building ammo takes a long time. Any one who sells finished goes (with long build times) on the market has to sit actively in some fashion at their computer to ensure those goods cook.
So manufactured goods should cost more. Time is money after all.
Exactly this. There is no risk of loan default from players. This game isn’t reality and I would never wish it to be. The interest is aggressive here, but then again we are like simulating months and years at a crack. Interest is fine except that it might be a bit high.
Anyone paying 60 credits for Zascosium or Erestrum ore is insane or has no idea how the game works given that ingots are available for 5 and 13 credits respectively.
Copper, magnesium, and pentaxid are the only resources that can’t be had on the market right now for less than 30 per ore or 15 per ingot. Gold is actually scarce in the Marketplace at present and the lowest current offer is 350 per ingot or 75 per coin.
I fail to see the inflation. What I see is a few enormously rich players having nothing left worth spending their vast sums on that they’ve accumulated over many seasons of play. Making gold or other resources harder to get is not going to do one thing to solve that problem. They’re still going to be rich, and since it will be impossible for newer players to attain that status it will only create a permanent economic divide. What is needed is more stuff for wealthy late-stage players to spend money on so they can trade some of their wealth for fun instead of trading it for other wealth.
And what’s wrong with that? This is a game. It’s a pure fantasy game, not a simulation of anything in reality. Its sole purpose is to have fun. Fun is a subjective player feeling. Any change that makes players feel like they’re having less fun is a bad change.
I still have yet to see any evidence of this terrible inflation or its horrific effects on gameplay. I see people railing against it, sure, but not a single word about how that actually makes the game less fun - unless you mean that it makes the game less fun for YOU because you’re already very wealthy and see no reason why anyone else should be able to attain the same status.
As for the inflation, I have posted several times about actual prices on the Marketplace. Yes, there are offers up at ridiculous prices. But who is paying those prices? The real market price is going to be the LOWEST sell offer and most resources are going for very low prices these days. The exceptions are things with high demand and limited supply like magnesium and pentaxid, and their prices reflect that scarcity and not general inflation. I don’t see how you can talk about inflation when large offers of zascosium are on the market for 5, yes 5, credits per ingot. That indicates too many resources chased by too little money, which is the OPPOSITE of inflation.
Yes, it is an unrealistic economy. Guess what, this is a GAME. When I want to play in a realistic economy I’ll play in the real life one. Part of the reason people game is to get away from the depressing real economy where some people are born filthy rich and others can grind away their whole lives and never get anywhere.
Because those are not the changes that are needed, and I have yet to see one single word explaining how they’ll make this a better game. Just huffing and puffing and shouting “BUT INFLATION!!!” is not showing how it hurts the game. How is your fun diminished if other players are able to mine gold the way they were up until last week?
And yes, I know, Rex said inflation. But Rex doesn’t actually play on this server as an ordinary player, and he also hasn’t explained how the current economy kills fun. Sometimes he’s out of touch and I think this is one of those times.
The problem Rex actually identified, and the only one I’ve seen anyone identify, is that once players get to the late stage of the game money loses its point because there’s nothing much worthwhile left to spend it on. As I’ve said numerous times now, that has nothing to do with the money supply and everything to do with the lack of late-game content and challenges. Keeping newer players from ever getting to that point won’t solve that problem, it will only make it worse because the entrenched wealthy players will have even less of a challenge from newcomers. Those who are already enormously wealthy still be enormously wealthy no matter what you do to bank interest, daily loot, or gold mining, and they still won’t have much to spend that money on.
The only way to address that by restricting the money supply would be to take away the wealth those players already have, by, say, resetting everyone’s OCD to level 4 or so at the end of the season and canceling all permanent donor packages, but I’m guessing you’re not going to get many of those players to agree to that. Failing that, the only way to address that problem is to add new challenges and opportunities for late game players, and that’s going to be a lot more work than just nerfing mining or bank interest.
1 hour of effort = 500,000-1,000,000 for average skill/average difficulty
I think this sounds good. A new player can work to get in to that 500k-1M per hour range, and then eventually work their way towards high skill and difficult tasks, giving the potential to earn more.
Today’s POIs offer good value and the right items for the effort
Maybe they are being slightly devalued by all of the free autominer cores from daily loot, but they are still a really nice source of auto miner cores if you find yourself in a pinch. And epic weapons. And boosters. Most of which will actually sell for decent amounts on the market. I think maybe the reward isn’t worth the effort the very first time you do the POI, but what about the second, third and fourth times where you know exactly where/what the codes/core/loot/spawners are and you just quickly pick it clean? I think it becomes pretty good then… The rewards can’t be too good otherwise it will far exceed our targets for earnings per hour for people that make any effort to remember the POI layouts.
Dedicated Selling of ores should be a path to wealth
I think this is good as long as we keep risk/reward in mind. Gold should be highest risk and highest reward, followed by the other ores which are almost only available in PvP playfields or extremely hard PvE playfields, followed by common ores available everywhere with no risk and smaller reward.
Don’t do anything special to help manufacturing, let the HWS market dictate pricing
I think the market should decide here… I think being able to sell ore to an NPC offers a good enough baseline for prices of manufactured goods. You’d be silly to sell the manufactured goods for less than the cost of materials unless you overproduced something and are just trying to dump it. So you should charge more, since you had to put time in to manufacturing, and the amount more than you can charge I think should be based on what the market is willing to pay at the time.
Let’s try economic events
This just sounds awesome. No brainer imo as long as we make sure nothing is too crazy. I think ideally the events should all generate roughly the same amount of increased benefit relative to the risk involved so that no single event can cause huge lasting disruptions to the economy.
NPC Traders
This one is tricky for sure… because they are a paid thing that has provided such a great benefit for so long, it feels like they definitely need to continue to do that to prevent riots. I picked everything except “It’s okay if an NPC Trader contains more of a single item than an individual player could use in a season” and “Other than dynamic pricing, don’t touch NPC traders”. I think if we keep the package structure, they should be for whatever the market will buy them for, whether that’s ore, ammo, medicine etc. I do think that maybe we should be able to buy less packages per day. The packages are extremely powerful. If a player can buy 5 ammo/pent/fuel refills in a single fight, that is a looooong fight. Suddenly a 1v1 is like a 5v5 in terms of resources that are readily available in the fight. I think 1-2 for everyone per day is plenty for the advantage that they provide. The reason I didn’t choose “It’s okay if an NPC Trader contains more of a single item than an individual player could use in a season” is because that reduces the likelihood that you need to go out and do something. If you can buy a pack once and be all set for a season, you can do that for a bunch of different resources and not have to do anything. If a pack can contain more than a player will use in a whole season, it should be very very expensive - truly proportional to the price of the materials + some % for the convenience of not having to manufacture.
Keep advanced components
I think we should be able to buy them, but again just with prices proportional to the raw materials + some % for convenience.
guys, as @h1myname1sdav1d mentioned already, the free loot is not that much compared to how much an active player can make per day… so I really don’t see how changing those and harming people with less play time available to play, when the real problem lies with people already too rich…
the main thing being proposed in this thread as far as I can tell is normalizing Npc Trader prices and in-game traders to more follow the player marketplace prices… thus making it even more player driven prices…
how about maybe start pitching some new ideas for new things? new money sinks and such that could provide fun for rich people…
and resetting people’s riches and OCD only serves to irritate those who have gone to great lengths to reach them…
getting ocd 7 is already alot of gameplay hours, not to mention 8 9 and 10… u could argue they r not needed, but they r there… they created goals for me and I’m sure others to aim for and the longer they need to reach (ur talking years!!!) the less motivation I have to go for them… and if not them… then what? this, in my opinion needs answering…
To be honest I think the trader package system, while it has been great for me and many others, is just… very disruptive to the economy in general. No matter how we balance the prices or the amount received by the owner or anything like that, I think it’s still very disruptive. It adds a ton of resources and credits in to the economy out of nowhere since the seller does not have to actually sell the materials, and they get half the money from the sale.
Really wild idea, but I wouldn’t mind seeing traders re-worked entirely. An idea that I was throwing around with @Ranzeth was to have the traders be changed to something that gives you some type of bonus in regular, non-disruptive trading. Some examples of how it could maybe work:
As soon as you own one trader on HWS, you get some unique trade advantage. Maybe you can list items to HWS Marketplace from anywhere on a cooldown or something. Maybe you also get some % bonus on trading with NPCs or players.
Each additional trader gives additional % bonus in trades, and maybe decreases cooldown time on listing trades outside of the marketplace or something like that. Or maybe the cooldown stays the same but each trader has their own cooldown, so you could do it 4 times at once with 4 traders, but not again for a while (would need to be balance with ocd:put and not just be a p2w ocd 7 that costs 10% to cancel and get your items back or something… abusive like that lol - maybe just restrict to PvE only)
Or another potential setup:
HWS Marketplace has 2 different kinds of listing. A single item listing, or a package listing.
For each trader you own, you can sell a certain number of packages on the HWS Marketplace at one time (1 Trader = 10 concurrent package listings, 2 = 20 etc for example)
The packages are made from your own resources
You choose a price to sell the package - competitive with the market since it’s your own resources
When the packages are sold, you get some additional % bonus on top of whatever the buyer paid (because your trader hustled for you - more traders = more hustle = better % bonus on package sales)
The advantage to the buyer is that they get a bunch of items in a single transaction - rather than having to buy many items at a potentially very high RP cost
These are very rough, off the top of my head ideas that would require a lot more thought to come up with something solid, but just a starting point for ideas on how it could maybe be re-worked in some way that makes them less disruptive to supply and demand. Basically the goal with the ideas that I proposed is something good enough to make players who already have traders feel like they are still worth it, and attractive for new players as well, but without injecting so many resources out of thin air with little work.
Edit: Dammit I just realized some ways the second suggestion could be abused lol. Either way… just some rough ideas! Maybe they could be tweaked a bit to prevent/limit abuse.
I think i somewhat i agree with you. I believe the solution is more simple then making a whole new feature of extra bonuses to deal with. I think the simple solution is to keep the prices how they are but lower significantly how much is sold mainly built components like t3 shields, large thrusters, warp drives, generators, and artillery turrets, and pentaxid. Other things should be lowered too but these are the main culprits in my opinion.
One thing to keep in mind about the NPC Trader and that i’v mentioned before on my previous comments is that everyone who buys from the NPC Trader takes out half the credits they used and all of the reputation they used out of circulation from the market. This helps some with the hyper-inflation caused by credits from nothing and interest and free credits from daily loot.
Get rich people to spend their money. Do not make it hard to get rich, because that does affect only the poors.
Second thing:
Do not force people to play PVP to get rich. PVP should be a choise, not an obligation.
Third thing:
Do not forget that people are spending real money by bying some stuff on this server. You cant sell something to them and then nerf if. Imagine I do offer a car for sell, you do look at it (checking the details etc.) and then you do buy it. After a while I come to you and do take the radio and 2 wheels away from the car because I do think it should be nerfed…
I have not forgotten this and want to do right by anyone who is supporting HWS. Certain more extreme ideas around NPC traders are not being considered because of this. I want people who support HWS to be rewarded for doing so. In game ratios and balance are things we need to always have available to us but giving value to our supporters has to be maintained.
Honestly, I’d never want that in this game. Moving averages, candlestick charts, and everything else associated with that, is drudgery for most. Like someone else said, I don’t want this to turn into quasi-real life scenarios. Most come to a space fantasy game to get away from reality.
