I have been told this season GG bunkers were 250m each. Considering a faction of 5 players with EB5, making that money is very easy. Hell, I have that kind of money already with only 300 hours in the server.
Dude, you got lucky with the abundance of money-making mechanics this season. Our v2 bunker costs 302 mil for a faction of 3, which took some grinding. The v1 probably could’ve gone for more. This season is probably the easiest of any for making money.
Would have gone upto 1billion but most of the players capped out at 100m due to not being able to use OCD gold conversion. Crazy.
I’m not talking about the new money making methods. Any veteran already established in the server can sell some gold, buy EB5 in both NA and EU servers and make 5m daily per players. The return is huge.
A faction of 5 players would make 25m daily with that method, just by writing eb:interest in both servers daily.
EDIT: Btw, the thread is about deconstructor nerf and making pvp blocks more expensive. We are not discussing OCD or EB or anything like that. Let’s focus on just the suggestions made in this thread.
Aside from the point of this post, my take is that you don’t like that longtime players have any advantage over you. That is painfully obvious both here and in discord.
As for the content of the post:
As gaspra said, some people get their materials from POIs. Deconstructors are new to Empyrion and underused as it is. If someone isn’t deconstructing items, they could just be stuffing them in their factory for the 100% of the material value anyway. While a 100% return on mats might not be realistic, most players I’d wager aren’t using this method anyway and changing it would solve nothing. Nerfing it into the ground wouldn’t do any good.
YOU ARE NOT A PVP PLAYER. PLEASE GAIN EXPERIENCE IN THE TOPIC BEFORE SAYING THAT PVP ISN’T EXPENSIVE ENOUGH
Yes, ships can be replaced. Yes, us veterans feel it every time. As much as you may not believe it, most people aren’t storing 20m sathium in there. That’s a waste. While ammo does cost a lot, I can’t imagine a reason to increase the cost of basic building blocks. When a ship sustains too much damage (Let’s say 2k/3k for a SV) you recycle it or deconstruct it if able. Recycling it you lose another 200 blocks and it costs you 20k to do so. I’ll agree that isn’t a lot, but remember you’re firing ammo too. ATM the server may feel unbalanced due to the instant spawns. Realistically, blueprints have their production time. So losing a ship means you lose the ship itself, its ammo, and the time to produce a new one. I think that is costly enough and upping the resource cost isn’t going to do PVP any favors.
Ok. Time to dive in. I’ve sort of only scanned this thread so forgive me if i make any big presumptions please.
This post will focus on three things.
Deconstructor.
NPC traders.
PVP.
Money Sinks.
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Deconstructor. In my opinion 100% return rate is a little bit high. I’d down it to anything between 50-80%. Or maybe have some sort of scalable upgradeable system, like a deconstructor return rate. But i could be dreaming. I won’t lie that i have processed a crap-ton of power coils. And i’ve managed to get an enormous amount of erestrum and zascosium out of them. But this is only a secondary issue for me.
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NPC traders are very powerful in their current form, and in the long run there may be a solid argument for changing how their costs are calculated. First thing i would do, is have a formula to work out a minimum cost; then after that let the player of the NPC trader decide how much their package should cost. As right now they don’t get to choose. This way you may have people be a little bit more sensible with their pricing.
BUT
It’s important to remember that compared to the old NPC traders, these new ones are pretty tame. The only super duper crazy one is the power coils. 25K power coils for 25 RP and less than a million credits. That’s one hell of a purchase. But in the old days you could literally buy like 25k of large constructors per trade haha. So these days they are considerably more balanced. But there is room for extra work on them.
- PVP. Despite this season having lots of PVE playfields with easily obtainable rare resources there has still been significant PVP, which has also been event based but mostly emergent like the good ole’ days.
For PVP i think SV combat is pretty awesome, and bases feel meaty. My only problem is with CV combat, class 7 cvs everywhere. Would be nice if a couple of playfields had lower CV class size, for some quicker and less forgiving battles like the good ole’ days where core targeting was a thing. (Because let’s be honest, Eleon removed core targeting so they could say that they had ‘fixed’ the lag-shot problem, and we all know how false that is…).
Maybe next season a significant reduction of the amount of rare and semi rare mats in PVE, to encourage more PVP crossover, but there should still be some positions in PVE with rare and semi rare mats that get regularly farmed.
Ok onto the big one, this bit is going to be long so prepare yourselves! MONEY SINKS:
- One thing i’ll agree with Fasgort on is that 2.5mil a day is nice, but i don’t think it should be nerfed, not at all. From my prior experience as a member of HWS i’ve witnessed an 85% nerfed Orbital Auto Miner. A 90% nerfed OCD (500k to 50k) about a 60% nerfed NPC trader (14k cons per trade to 300, but other ones are still almighty, e.g power coils.) And about a 95% nerf in interest rates (2.5mil daily down from 50mil.)
So we need to be VERY careful about nerf suggestions…as some vets (not me) are still feeling the punch from prior changes, it’s easy to suggest a nerf as quick fix measure, but all it really does is hurt the newer players who aren’t quite as intensive as you in their playstyle @Fasgort.
Instead we should have more money sincs: For instance, look at how much money was spent on bunkers between EU and NA…Over 1 billion credits in total. That would take over 400 days of interest to pay that money back…So don’t under-estimate the power of the money sink.
I would propose several ‘high tier’ options for wealthy players with no progression left (Such as those with OCD7 and Bank 5; something to keep them going.)
I would propose basically a ‘prestige’ style-system.
Orbital AutoMiner
For my prestige system here, you could prestige either an individual miner or the entire thing, and as a result all of its levels and fuel would reset back to 1. However upon buying it all back up to 10 you would have say a 10% extra resource income, and a 10% higher stacking rate. And upon each ‘prestige’ it could cost progressively more.
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Prestige 1 5 Million 10RP. (This doesn’t include the cost for purchasing each AM level upto 10.)
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Prestige 2 7.5 Million 20RP.
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Prestige 3 11 Million 35RP.
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Prestige 4 15 Million 60RP.
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Prestige 5 25 Million , 100RP. (This would be a 50% upgrade on the curret OAM. The price is not prohibitive for now, maybe an increase in RP or Credit requirement would be greater, but you guys get the idea.
OCD
I propose a similar system for OCD, but at much greater cost, and only rising in 5% increments. But instead of requiring an OCD reset (which would be extreme), it would cost 10% of the OCD level cost per 5% increase in slot capacity (not an increase in slots).
E.g OCD 5 would cost 500K for a 5% increase.
Whereas OCD7 would cost 70mil for a 5% increase…here there is a problem, as it stays considerably cheaper for the level 5, at some point they could compete with a ‘stock’ ‘vanilla’ OCD lvl 7. So some further thought shall be required for this.
Skill Tree
I know this is a while away yet. But i have a previous skill tree proposal which i’m going to shamelessly advertise here: Skill-Tree suggestion for 9.0
With my suggestion in mind, it could be used to help reduce the cost of ‘prestige-ing’ the OCD and Orbital Autominers.
TL:DR I believe in adding more features for people to spend money for, instead of simply taking away from the current features.
Finally, the argument could be made that my proposal widens the gap between the top and the bottom, and that would be a fair statement, but as you see currently. For a guy to ‘prestige’ his LVL 7 OCD by 50% would require 700 million. Whilst for a lvl 5 OCD merely costs 2.5Mil (this needs fixing and consideration, i’ll leave it to you guys to come up with ideas.)
Best regards
Wise
PS: I hope this post is intelligible, i wrote it shortly after waking up. 
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People who buy OCD 7 are brain damaged 
(joking, joking, but really…)
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Oi! 
I’m still waiting for…
(Play this before you open the spoiler tag:)
Summary
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It seems that me and Tive got some conversation going 
Theres some good suggestions allready made.
To be fair this sounds good. I wouldn’t have any problem with the EB5 if there is more stuff to spend the money for.
I have waited until I had EB5 (twice), before coming here and say: “Yeah, I feel like EB5 is a bit OP”. Anything else you regard as advantage over me is stupid, because again, I’m not a PVP player. I’m not affected at all about how much resources or money other people have. My opinion comes about how once you reach a state of establishment, you have nothing to fawn for.
I like Wiseman suggestions tho since it increases the uses money can have, giving more objectives for people banking money.
Farming materials from POI is a drip in a sea. Even myself farming from them, have got very very few materials from them. Even so, it doesn’t mean nerfing the deconstructor it’s gonna make newbies starve materials. We all still have deposits, meteorites, asteroids, and the OAMs.
Here is the thing. I don’t engage players, but I enter PVP playfields. I have my own experiences encountering bases, trying to break a few defense bases and having to retreat because wasting ammo on them is absurd. I have found huge bases for first time while scouting and reported to some PVP factions. The answers I got: “It’s a waste attacking defense bases.”
It took weeks before someone decided to take down the bases I scouted (without players actively defending them). And it’s probably already back and rebuilt anyway. Blocks only cost iron and sathium (stone for concrete). They are VERY common materials. I personally have MILLIONS of that. The real cost of PVP is the expensive ammo. If you need iron and sathium, hell, pm me, I’ll sell you some cheap iron and sathium.
In fact, I would up the cost of blocks to x2 the original price.
There seems to be some issues we have currently inflation of resources,
and really bad one. NPC trader have to be fixed and PVE resource gathering nerfed.
Not a nightmare like last season. But all rares in PVE areas should be meteorites ond maybe some asteroids.
This guy have some nice videos on MMO economy.
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@Sayak this video (in general EC) is very cool and did you recognize that I tried to do this on a lot of features? I’m not an expert or played EvE or WoW myself but I really want to give you guys a great experience here.
Not easy for sure!
So let’s see:
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The deconstructor is something I am NOT ok with. 100% return rate is silly, really. Basically, it is the complete counter part of a NPC Trader. Because why should you go to a trader and buy stuff, if you can get the components out of the Deconstructor after raiding POIs? And I’m talking here about some special POIs we have on HWS (Homeworld Moons)
So my suggestion is to reduce the return rate to 80% at least. Watching the video also shows that the Deconstructor is part of inflation. We need ways to create a “re-play” factor and not keep an infinite giving / taking cycle with this cheater device. In my opinion.
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The Ammo cost is something we discussed already. It pushes trading but bring PvP only to those who are “ready” for it. If new players can get ammo easy they are getting faster frustrated. One of many theories.
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I don’t think Block cost are part of the inflation nor PvP issue. They are required but should not make you tired to craft / get them.
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So the point overall are NPC Traders. Even though it’s a Supporter Package you can read the disclaimer clearly that they can be subject to change any time. And they were created before the cheater-de-constructor were added.
So I repeat myself: can’t somebody just do some math based on the 80-100% return ratio of deconstructors and send me the new numbers ? Also that RP is now SO much more viable maybe it’s just enough to push the RP cost. They are limited anyways already.
I can / will do this too but hoped for help from you guys…
- Money sink. In general you can go on this topic with either “nerf / limit / adjust” or: leave it as it is but create ways to spend them more. Easy. There are a lot of options we have already or can create them. Supergate warping for example is the most easy won. Per jump 1 RP or so
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Hey. A lot of good toughts. But What i feel, is that as much there are players, we also have different opinions. Unfortunatly most of those from the person perspective. Also unfortunally most of suggestions i heard about economy are not seeing the big picture. That sayd, i can also say that i am currently working on things myself.
As we speak, i m mapping current situation on HWS economy. Once i get this done, i can start sewing it together and see how it really works as individual and together. After that i will make some suggestions to be debated (that community can critizise). I feel if we do changes that just solve 1 issue someone saw, changes we make will promp new issues that we need to solve. So as result: i will come out with 3 step plan, where first step will be fixes that should be done now, then the fixes that require some work to get done and then suggestions that could be additions to the future economy.
My goal with all this: Getting an economy where getting around can be done even if u dont make best choices, if u dont win fights and so on… but begin rich, that requires more than just makeing few good choices. So everyone would be happy of what they got and rich could be proud of themselves cus they are smart. Also with that sayd, i m putting a lot of importance on reduceing grinding while imporveing the “skill” factor of invidiuals in moneymakeing while keeping it fairly simple on first look.
Thanks for reading.
Yours, Tive.
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Pay for convenience makes sense. I would probably avoid using the SG if they cost me and only use in emergency. I really like wiseman’s ideas. Really gives long time vets something to do and aim for. I also agree adding content to spend money makes so much more sense than nerfing.
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Can someone explain the deconstructor hate from a gameplay aspect. I’m a little lost on this part, must be something I’m missing.
You can already get 100% return on items by stuffing them into your bp factory. So seems the only people it truly helps are those breaking down items for ammo. And the convenience of throwing some stuff to “reconfigure” to devices you want instead of havin to go the bp route.
Please enlighten me.
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The only “painfully obvious” thing here is that you have an opinion, which you’re entitled to, even if you sound a bit 
My take on Fasgort’s issue is this -
he is not complaining that other players are richer than him (he has no reason to be jealous, he’s an excellent player rising fast) but rather he maybe feels he was able to get rich too easily and wants more challenge.
On deconstructors, I think they are fine, 90% back might be more realistic but the device is power hungry and very, very, very slooooow as a tradeoff.
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I’m fully aware of how I sound. I’ll admit I was a little fed up with the whole thing (12+ hours watching discord complaints about economy) and pretty much let that flow here.
Fasgort absolutely is taking every advantage to rise in ability on the server. And that’s okay, mostly. To use things how they were meant to be used, however, wouldn’t result in this conversation.
I applaud the fact that he found an exploit with the system. But, after seeing his comments about the topic all day yesterday, i’ll defend my comment.
An exploit is taking advantage of something broken or not working as intended. What are you referring to here that is not working as intended?
I’m aware of one exploit that Fas discovered days ago - he reported it immediately to Rex, and was richly rewarded for doing so, while others who used it to profit were banned.
Let’s keep this on topic all.
So far the hot issue seems to be deconstructor return rate and NPC traders.
And to a lesser extent with PVE rare resources.
Best regards
Wise.
NPC to deconstructors…