*Unfortunately I opened to channels for feedback. Forum and Discord. So I might copy paste stuff back and forth…)
Good Morning everyone,
thank you for all your feedback. I will consider it!
I think at this point the (negative) feedback repeats - forum and here.
@Harbo Wilkins#9587 and @Big Red#0563 tried to nail it. It’s good 
The only problem I see with a lot of feedback I got so far: they do not acknowledge that there is an issue with inflation and the issue the OCD is causing long term (not short term) and do not provide alternative solutions. Also the assumption storing his beloved farmed content should be free, forever, not accepting a small fee for storage.
I get that it’s awesome to come back with everything unchanged for himself. But isn’t it kinda ignorant when everything else changed?
We had resource crusts in the old HWS Scenario, where you could farm millions of Erestrum for example. In HWS+ it’s not there anymore. This is incredible difficult, no, in fact impossible to balance.
If that guy is returning now after 2-3 years, he can skip all the progression I had in mind for HWS+.
In RE it’s the same. At the beginning Ravien and Vermillion used a lot more Vanilla POIs in their scenario. And vanilla POIs are just horrible balanced. They had Advanced Cores in their containers and other absurd loot. Some people created multiple accounts to farm and stash that loot. Trying now to justify their “hard earned OCD”.
Most that complain right now have at least one additional account, which makes 2 private OCDs. Most do also CSW, which makes 4 private OCDs.
I can totally understand that it becomes a chore / burn out, to maintain all of this with the Star Fragment Memory then.
No way at all do I want to give players a reason to leave HWS, that would be self-harming, since I do this for living. So why do I announce such a change anyways? I absolutely knew there will be a lot of negative backslash, so why did I announce it anyways?
Again, it’s not about the Star Fragment hunt, we can consider many other parameters for players to count as active (even though I find it silly to not do the Star Fragments).
It’s about acknowledging that there is an imbalance of balancing / progression in the long term.
And HWS is here to stay forever - as long as the game / I live.
Since 7 years are quite long for this Indie game and even longer for a MP server, we absolutely learned our lesson in that period now.
An inactive-self-cleaning system is pretty smart I think and solves many issues.
is this more likely to encourage people to come back, or potentially make it so if they’re gone right now, they dont come back?
@Harbo Wilkins#9587, to end my point I start with your good beginning question:
After thinking very long about it, it’s very hard to say mate. Looking at history, I think most people that come back to HWS are coming because of new content / changes. I mean there was a reason for a break in the first place, right. Some of them, didn’t even know they had stuff in their OCD. Some were even surprised all their stuff in the OCD were still in there. Of course, they were happy. But I think nobody comes back to a game in general, because of the stuff they did in the past. Certainly because of *good memories about the *past but statistically I think because they want to see what changed, if they get good memories again.
And hoarding stuff in their OCD was for sure a good memory. The process of hoarding was a good memory. Be it raiding a hard POI to get that lovely Alien Core. Be it a big PvP raid to steal stuff from others and put it into your OCD with a smile. Now… if they come back and they still have a full OCD… they can’t make good memories again with hoarding.
This everybody, is the sad truth I saw countless times in the last 7 years. As soon as people got OCD lvl 10, as soon as their OCD got full, they leave and see no reason to come back.
I will think more about it.
And to cover quickly a lot of feedback about the paying stuff (for example “but I paid for OCD lvl 5”) They miss totally the point that buying OCD lvls or an Alien Core, is just that. (and you don’t lose your level via the SF Memory feature btw.)
You buy for it and you get it. If you don’t like it AND not used it in any way within 14 days, fine, you can refund it. That’s our ToS. But you did not buy anything that said “you keep it forever in your OCD”. I don’t know where this assumption is coming from but I want to clear that up asap. Especially the Alien Core, once bought, stays in your “inventory” forever.
The do:rp:ac command is available forever to you, until you use it. But once you do and then put it into OCD, it falls under the disclaimer of the OCD guide: any changes might happen in the future.
Updated the initial announcement regarding Legendary OCD category is not affected by the <= 20% loss.
Hello RexXxus,
At first sorry fort this sentence „ “Than give me please my money back for the lvl 5 ODC” in an older post, it was not fair, because I used it in the last seasons. But the topic makes me in the first time verry emotional.
I will give you my personal opinion. Please don´t take it as a threat or take it personally.
I thank you and your team for the great work, at the moment it is for me one of the best server, because I have so many options and I can choose if I do it or not.
You create so many extras with the HWS connect and I like to use it, and the same here I have the option to do it or not. I understand it too, that we need some changes after a time, because changes help to bring new content or a new challenge.
But I don’t like being forced into things.
Why I am feeling forced?
With the planned OCD change I feeling forced, because I have only the option to play active every time or to pay or don’t use the OCD.
I am a player who don’t have always the time to play and from time to time I need a break from Empyrion.
And HWS was the server with the possibility to do a short or long break and come later back. The OCD makes it possible. Because of that I support the server when I play active.
In the past you change some things on the OCD, I was not always happy about it, but it was ok. I don’t lose my core content and I can do a break whenever I want.
With you change I lose all the benefits for my gameplay and my freedom.
Fazit for me:
I will look what will happen with this announcement and it depends on the decision what I will do.
I wish you all a happy first advent.
Best Regards
lahma
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I would speak more against than for. What to do if you play on several HWS servers, what to do then? If it is not possible to collect fragments on each server. I remember many problems with collecting fragments and searching for them for hours. In the end, it’s even useful when there is an opportunity to take a break from one style of play by switching to another, I mean different servers. But in this case, I will be obliged to collect on each where I play, and then the game risks turning into only endless searches for fragments on different servers
2 Likes
Having hoards of resources is damaging to the gameplay whether it be PvE or PvP. If everyone has full OCDs that are untouchable then there is nothing left to achieve or do. This especially applies to PvP. Having massive stockpiles of resources takes away any need to fight over anything or stake any claims in PvP.
I don’t think the degradation should be tied to any particular content though, but rather just tie to active hours in a season. Don’t set the active hours so high that part time gamers can’t achieve it and all should be fine.
Bottom line is that inflation does need to be addressed as it has been out of control for many seasons.
1 Like
I have sympathy for the predicament, however I think the idea that this will remedy your issues with inflation, player hoarding etc. is short sighted.
First, the thing that sets HWS apart from almost every other server out there is quite a unique recipe. Wiping is bad, everyone loses everything, but not wiping is also bad because we end up at the end game and lose playability. You have a balance with resetting the season so that everyone can go try to upgrade their ship to version n that is slightly better than n-1. You also allow for keeping the effort put forth the previous season to not feel like you are losing all your progress. I think in this recipe you have balanced the masochistic desires of those that want to start over every 3 months with everything being flushed and the casuals that will never get anywhere that way and play HWS because it does strike the balance. I do not foresee you messing with this recipe ending well. Also, any time you mess with an ecosystem there are opposing reactions somewhere else in the ecosystem. For instance, yes, I hoard stuff in my vault. I have spent better than 500 hours of my time amassing this trove. The lack of PVP is because the game is too costly when you lose. It is like playing Hardcore mode Diablo. The cost of making some of these endgame ships is nuts, losing them is unthinkable. Only when I can instantly rebuild my super expensive maxed out ship from my trove multiple times over would I ever consider putting it in harm’s way for PVP. Depleting my stash only ensures that there won’t be any meaningful PVP.
Taking into account the recent changes you have made also to the recycling and EB upgrades, making it to where I can’t easily dismantle my ships without spending a Billion gold every three months it is starting to look like you have made the conscious decision to change your recipe. That is fine, but you should consider that you have the most popular server now and there is not much for a new player base with this game. Of the existing player base you have a large market share. I do not plan on playing next season because Warzone 2 dropped, new WOW expansion tomorrow. The sum of the recent changes requires exorbitant amounts of play time. Now you are wanting to punish me for not logging in. Normally, I would say I will be back after season or two, but that is doubtful at this point.
I know you treat this very seriously because it is your livelihood. Just don’t make decisions based on your good intentions. Make your decisions based on the actual likely outcome and how well it will meet your intent. The neckbeard having people who play a ton will still have all their stuff because they are always online and will get their star fragments. They will continue to imbalance your economy and have heavy amounts of resources. You are just screwing everyone else.
3 Likes
Rex i was active without any push - and if there is no new content in the game i was back to help to my friends and new players. I collect all elementals on HWS+ to create one of the star system expansions, reporting many bugs on my way… I cant play on 2 servers in the same season… Until i was on HWS+ you begin to cut on HWS RE - that punch was too low… (
I agree with Cyan that inflation has been out of control for many seasons in HWS, and it does cause issues in terms of the gameplay loop, but I don’t think a system of ‘punishing’ (it will be seen this way, no matter what the intention is) inactive players is a solution. All this is likely to do is push away potential players, who might return at some point.
Put it this way, if they aren’t going to return anyway, then those resources aren’t impacting the system at all, as they stay out of the gameloop. If they do return, I think having a committed and experienced player back in the game is overall of more benefit to the server than the negative that comes with the resources that they bring.
Ultimately this is also just a band-aid fix. The game economy needs rebalancing around the inflation issue, and if it isn’t, then taking resources from previous systems out of the game isn’t going to solve it.
Empyrion has a fundamental problem as a persistent multiplayer server, in that both the base game, and the most popular mod (RE) are designed around the idea of a single player campaign, where you play through it, complete the objectives you want to, then end that play through. What that means is that neither of those set ups are balanced around the idea of a longterm persistent world, with multiplayer competition and conflict. When the idea is that someone is going to ‘complete’ the game, and stop playing, you don’t have to worry about resource inflation.
The old HWS System (pre expanded galaxy) was designed to counter this, with a limited amount of playfields, resources would run out on a regular basis. Use of AMs was very limited, due to playfield resets, and required large amounts of manual effort by players (going round to pick up their AMs weekly before the playfield reset, then having to go back round and put them all down again afterwards). I’m ok with all of that, because it meant that if you wanted to achieve something, if you wanted to get large amounts of resources, you had to put the effort in.
A lot of these systems and designs were broken by the introduction of the Procedurally generated Galaxy, and I don’t think the HWS economy ever really recovered from that point, as the scale of the galaxy essentially meant there were infinite resources available for the amount of players gathering them.
Controlling an economy in an online game comes in two parts, Inputs (resource generation) and outputs (resource destruction / removal). Part of the inflation problem also rests with the 2nd side, resource removal (Gold sinks, in classic gaming terms). The classic Gold Sink for HWS was PvP - Structures got destroyed in PvP, taking resources out of the game, requiring players to go out and get more resources. This is a pretty simple, but effective loop that has the benefit of being self sustaining. It was one that again broke down because of unregulated game inputs - the procedurally generated galaxy, Fan made POIs that Eleon injected into the game, star gate missions that weren’t well balanced etc.
Teams was a good idea in principal as a way of creating a gold sink that the admin can tweak as necessary. The implementation wasn’t ideal, mainly because the person who built a lot of it (achillies?) disappeared pretty much on launch, and there was a a number of bad interactions in it that hung around for way to long before they got picked up.
A good example of handing inflation well was the introduction of the Anti-Matter cannon on HWS. This was far and away the best weapon for an SV for a long time, but burned through Erestrum at a very high rate. This quickly drained a lot of Erestrum out of the game, and we saw battles over Iceworld (the main source of Erestrum) for the first time in multiple seasons, and saw Erestrum prices on the market skyrocket - all good stuff.
In general i’m completely onboard with wanting to combat inflation - even as a player with a couple of pretty well stocked OCDs. I just don’t think an out of game mechanic like this is the right approach, if nothing else because it won’t fix the overall problem long term. What we need is a good balance between in game inputs and outputs, and some sort of control that the admin can use to tweak these things to combat specific inflation.
For HWS + I think the building blocks for that are all there with Teams and High value, end game consumables (like Ammo etc).
I think ultimately unless @RexXxuS is going to take a more active hand in managing the scenario then RE is never going to have a balanced economy, as it isn’t part of the scenario design, so I think trying to fix that is a moot issue really.
4 Likes
TLDR: New player thoughts, The “money sink” concept, or in this situation “loot sink” concept has been around for decades and is appropriate. What are star fragments?
After reading most of these posts I thought I’d put in my 2 cents as a highly active new player in their first season at HWS.
I think it would be naïve to argue with Rexxus without bringing in a viable alternative, which some people have done. Rexxus obviously knows what they’re doing and has been successful at it for years from what I’ve seen, so I’d trust this change at face value.
But, as a new player… What the hell are star fragments? Laugh if you will, but if you honestly want to measure activity of a server, I think the form of measurement used should be something everyone can reach regardless of experience.
My first playthrough(1.8 release) I barely made it out of starter system before I started playing multi. This season I went from 0 to having a 10aux ship, still no idea what star fragments are. **Other than reading this post.
If I could… I would propose measuring active players instead by tracking Website activity. I’ve worked my butt off and achieved great things this season(imo). But I doubt I’ll find star fragments. I won’t reach OCD 10 either, so if this applied - I’d be able to keep 5 Aux cores out of 10, 20% of 5 is 1, so I would lose a hard earned Aux Core just for being new while the well experience player’s now maintain their huge fresh wipe gap, along with another 20% because I’m an ignorant new player. (Please note I’m not upset or snappy here, just comedic tone).
Please consider noobs and filthy casuals moving forward with this project and thanks for giving the community an opportunity to have an opinion.
1 Like
custom content from HWS not included in the RE scenario. first appearance was in the expanded universe on the 2 main HWS servers before the change to HWS+
it’s a “hunt” for 7 fragments of the HWS Star that have scattered around the galaxy. this season was the 1st time they appeared in RE. they provide an alternate “something to do” and give a decent amount of origin XP.
Ladies and Gentlemen.
We have a unique opportunity to observe a very interesting socio-political phenomenon “The Formation of a Totalitarian Regime” on the example of a single community. So, it all starts with the commission of an action by a person in power that is detrimental to the welfare of the community. (Examples in parentheses are from the current HWS situation. HWS+ project. Two additional worlds require resources and will never generate income.). It does not matter at all whether this action was a mistake or a conscious one.
Next, the authority determines the source of resources to compensate for the consequences of the error. As a rule, this is the property of community members, preferably highly liquid, ideally money. In this case, nothing is supposed to be done with the error itself.
Next, a fairy tale is composed about some kind of catastrophe, crisis, epidemic, and even some signs of this catastrophe are imitated. (Inflation. We open Wikipedia, read about inflation, we understand that they lied to us. We read about deflation, and we understand that the solutions proposed to us will not solve anything, but will also lead to stagnation).
This is followed by a loud statement in all the media about this “Catastrophe” and the “Guilty” are appointed, who will be robbed. (“Inactive” players with property in OCD and who once paid money. The rest go by the trailer, they are not sorry.)
With the participation of specially trained people, a “discussion” of the declared “catastrophe” takes place and the focus of attention is diverted from really important issues. (I won’t point my finger at Bob, you can guess for yourself.)
And now it is not being discussed that people are being deprived of the right to private property and the right to manage their time, but how much property will be taken away and how much time will have to be spent incomprehensibly on what. (Watch the discussion and wonder).
Along the way, a personality cult of the “father of nations” is being formed. It is stated that he is infallible, wise and just, and as long as he exists, we all exist. (“…as long as I am alive and EGS will be alive and HWS …”, “he has been in the subject for 7 years and knows what he is doing.” The quotes are not accurate, but they convey the meaning.). And yes, the Leader never participates in the discussion and does not conduct dialogues with people at all. He’s almost equal to God.
Further, the “father of nations” sums up the discussions slightly softening the initial conditions and hints that it is possible to pay off. These conditions were planned even before the circus with “disaster” and “discussion”. And for the sake of the payoffs, the whole idea was. The whole cycle of “catastrophe” - “discussion” - “how much to pay” can be repeated indefinitely. The example of North Korea is illustrative. The idea of making people pay to not participate (not to buy, not to play) is amazing in its effectiveness.
And as a finishing touch, you need to take away the right to express your opinion. And also get rid of “too smart”. So I’m going to “forced emigration”, which I advise you.
T.K. I do not know English, so in addition to the Googl translation, I also provide the source text.
Дамы и господа.
Мы имеем уникальную возможность наблюдать очень интересное социально-политическое явление «Становление тоталитарного режима» на примере отдельно взятого сообщества.
Итак, всё начинается с совершения человеком у власти действия, которое наносит ущерб благосостоянию сообщества. (В скобках будут примеры из текущей ситуации HWS. Проект HWS+. Два дополнительных мира требуют расхода ресурсов и никогда не принесут дохода.). При этом совершенно не важно, было это действие ошибкой или сознательным.
Далее власть определяет источник ресурсов для компенсации последствий ошибки. Как правило это имущество членов сообщества, желательно высоколиквидное, в идеале деньги. При этом с самой ошибкой ничего делать не предполагается.
Далее сочиняется сказка про какую нибудь катастрофу, кризис, эпидемию и даже имитируются некоторые признаки этой катастрофы. (Инфляция. Открываем Википедию, читаем про инфляцию, понимаем, что нам соврали. Читаем про дефляцию, и понимаем, что предлагаемые нам решения ничего не решат, а ещё и к стагнации приведут).
Далее следует громкое заявление по всем сми про эту «Катастрофу» и назначаются «Виновные», кого будут грабить. («Неактивные» игроки с имуществом в OCD и когда-то платившие деньги. Остальные идут прицепом, их не жалко.)
При участии специально обученных людей происходит «обсуждение» заявленной «катастрофы» и уводится фокус внимания от действительно важных вопросов. (Тыкать пальцем в Bob не буду, сами догадаетесь.)
И вот уже обсуждается не то, что у людей отбирают право на частную собственность и право распоряжаться своим временем, а то, сколько имущества заберут и сколько времени придётся тратить непонятно на что. (Смотрим обсуждение и удивляемся).
Попутно формируется культ личности «отца наций». Заявляется что он непогрешим, мудр и справедлив, и пока есть он существуем и все мы. («…пока жив я и EGS будет жив и HWS…», «он уже 7 лет в теме и знает что делает». Цитаты не точные но смысл передают.). И да, Вождь никогда не участвует в обсуждении и вообще не ведёт диалогов с людьми. Он ведь почти равен богу.
Далее «отец наций» подводит итог обсуждениям чуть смягчая изначальные условия и намекает, что можно откупиться. Эти условия и планировались ещё до цирка с «катастрофой» и «обсуждением». И ради откупных и была вся затея.
Весь цикл «катастрофа» - «обсуждение»- «сколько платить» может повторяться бесконечно. Пример Северной Кореи показателен. Идея заставить платить чтобы не участвовать (не покупать, не играть) потрясающая в своей эффективности.
И как завершающий штрих нужно отобрать право высказывать своё мнение. А так же избавиться от «слишком умных». Так что я отправляюсь в «вынужденную эмиграцию», чего и вам советую.
Т.К. Я не знаю ангийского, то привожу помимо перевода Googl ещё и исходный текст.
1 Like
it’s always transactional people that feel robbed when they make a donation. but for those who insist they bought something, what has been “purchased” is not being taken away. the free 0’s & 1’s we spent time collecting are what’s going to be decayed if a player is gone for years.
sorry to put it so bluntly but, usually someone who has been gone that long doesn’t really care about the community that much in the first place. why should the community care about them?
And here is one of the methods of macnipulation “Substitution of blame”.
The deprivation of the right of private property in the form of a forced seizure of part of the property Bob is supposed to present as a “voluntary donation”.
And also the use of the right to choose to play or not, Bob proposes to use as a basis for deprivation of the right of private property. At the same time, the seizure of property in favor of a private person or organization is proposed to be considered the interests of the community.
I’m not sure if they have these types of things in other countries but over here in America we have this group called the girl scouts. they come around every year with their delicious cookies but no matter how many times I donate, they won’t give me more cookies unless I donate more money. it’s weird.
also, we have these companies that provide services that i paid for. but here’s the thing, most of them expect me to keep paying if I want them to keep providing me that service. it’s weird.
why should I have to keep paying them? I paid them once already, does that not entitle me service for life?
1 Like
bottom line is this, there’s no property involved here at all. there’s no tangible goods.
this is a party, you donated to the beer fund. That’s all it is
if you want your special beer mug saved, donate to the beer fund or keep coming to the party. it’s not like anyone’s asking you to solve world hunger. join or don’t. it’s up to you
Bob, you are wrong again.
With Girl Scouts, you have a public contract of sale, like in a supermarket.
With the company you have an agreement on the provision of services / supply of goods. It contains ALL conditions and it is possible to change these conditions either by mutual agreement of the parties or after the execution / payment of what has already been paid / delivered by the other party. At the same time, changes to the contract are described in detail on paper.
Tell Disney, Google, Apple or anyone else that intangible assets are worth nothing. The joke is appreciated. Your reputation is also an intangible asset.
I give you permission to use what I write below.
If your company has a one-time cash gap, then you can report this to the community without lies and announce a collection of VOLUNTARY DONATIONS. As long as your reputation will allow you to get what you want or even more.
If your company does not balance expenses / income, then:
option 1 - it is necessary to bring expenses in line with income (abandon part of unprofitable projects)
option 2 - officially inform about the change in the terms of the contract in advance, in detail and in the correct form. There may be claims for the return of previously paid money, but you already know how to treat a one-time cash gap. Having spent time and courage on researching the target audience, competitors and working out the business strategy on the rest of the customers, you can build a successful business.
If you continue to destroy your reputation at the same pace (an intangible asset that, according to Bob, is worth nothing), then in 6 months only a miracle will save your company.
here, you are completely wrong. you seem to be under the assumption that HWS blinked into existence when you discovered it. when in fact it has been here for almost 7 years. The RE universe just started March of last year so that hasn’t even been up for two.
I highly suggest you understand the environment you are in before you start spewing propaganda. here’s a couple places to start:
https://empyrion-homeworld.net/hws-connect.html#page-support-us
this is a private server with no password.
this is not a company selling goods and services under contractual laws. this is a party at someone’s house that is allowing us to hang out. those who choose to support him will do so. those who are just here for the free beer can stay too but don’t expect us to save your seat for the odd chance you might show up a year from now.
the part you should be focusing the most on:
- This is an active alpha system - We may add or remove your favorite features / change the support system, we can’t please everyone. But let’s keep dialog open.
that is the harsh reality of the situation. nothing is ever perfect that’s why he says keep the dialogue open. everything is fluid and usually up for discussion. making demands doesn’t bode well for anyone. dramatizing your victimization doesn’t work either. those that try to use their wallet as a weapon don’t last very long in this environment…
Look at Bob:
The water is wet
The wind blows
Rummaging in other people’s pockets is bad. Even at a private beer party.
Reputation is important.
It is wrong to create a totalitarian regime on the entire planet, in a separate country or at a private beer party.
I talked to you about human values, rights and democracy. And you’re talking about the wallet.
You are boring, I will leave you …
1 Like